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Which instrument to play Bach?

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...

Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby pat17 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:47 am

deWaverley wrote:Patrick - in answer to your question...actually I was unaware of the Anloo organ until this thread! The specs of that and the Vollenhove are vaguely similar, so maybe a move from Anloo to Vollenhove will not be enough of a change to be worthwhile for you (even though the Vol has a much better acoustic...and, judging by the Anloo demos, a little bit more of a warm sound than the Anloo...I love the Prospectum business model, btw).


Thanks for your comment, deW. 8)

You're probably right - having two too similar instruments is not really a solution, how nice the Vollenhove might be. :wink:

JPSmith wrote: The Trost exemplifies the sound of the late-baroque Thuringian organ and includes many of the specific and very "progressive" stops Bach is known to have liked. So if the goal (elusive though it may be) is to hear Bach's works the way he intended I think the Trost has to get the nod, as beautiful as the Hinsz is.


You are right in theory - the instrument which is closest to what Bach knew is supposed to be the best choice as the final result will be closer to what he wanted to achieve when his scores are played. :wink:

My approach as an amateur with limited skills is somewhat different though. My main target is to hear a sound that I do appreciate. Fortunately the most beautiful instruments are in my humble opinion Baroque ones - at least I shall never try to play Bach on a Cavaillé-Coll. But, when it comes to baroque instruments, for whichever reason, I have alsways an inclination for Dutch organs. :wink:

I have downloaded samples of all the organs that have been kindly proposed when I was asking for suggestions. I listened to them carefully. There was clear winner, which was the Kampen's Hinsz. All the comments read were preparing me to favour the Trost, but sorry it came second on my list "only". :wink:

Now that I am back from vacation, I shall have another comparative session between all downloaded files, just to check if my opnion remains the same - considering the price of the instruments, I want to make sure I'm not doing a mistake. :wink:
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby imcg110 » Wed May 05, 2010 1:53 pm

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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby pat17 » Thu May 06, 2010 4:02 am

imcg110 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTZts9g43h4

Need I say more??



It's wonderful Iain, thanks to bring my attention to this video! 8)

But still, I have an issue with this instrument. It remains too close to the Anloo I already own. Maybe much better in terms of accoustic - and I am fortunate enough to get an audio setup that outlines the gap between the two instrumentys - but very similar in terms of profile to the other one. :oops:

I would have been happy to pay 375 € if it were a first acquisition, but it remains too high a price for a "duplicate" instrument. :oops:
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Thu May 06, 2010 6:56 am

Funny, I just watched this video yesterday and thought, it really sounds good. I then went upstairs and rummaged through my music and found the piece. I then sat down to try it out on my Kampen Hinsz. Man, talk about beautiful. It sounded just as clean and clear but with more of the beautiful acoustic the Kampen has. I love the long warm reverb I guess. To me the Trost just sounds too dry.

I have the Freiberg demo which sounds nice in its own way, but I just prefer the bigger acoustic.

I've found adding a pseudo surround to the Kampen makes it sound even better. I'm using an external DSP that adds a little more reverb to the rear.

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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby pat17 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:43 am

Thank for your input Eric! 8)

When reading your post, it gave me an idea. I feel so stupid I had not thought of it before - why not trying the short listed organs? :shock:

This is what I'm doing right now - downloading the Pipeloops which ajt likes to much, and the Hinsz demos...

It will take some time before I can see the result though - not only the Internet is censored in the UAE, but also it's not really fast... :oops:

Thanks again Eric! :P
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Thu May 06, 2010 12:04 pm

Yes, I downloaded the demo first to try it out. As well as ordered the Freiberg demo CD. The notes are limited on the Kampen demo but I could play enough to really get a feel for how it sounded and played on my system.

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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby Andruss » Fri May 07, 2010 1:40 pm

I believe that the Zwolle you will enjoy the most. I use it for a year. I have a mass of other instruments ... Caen ... Forcalquier ... Rabštejn ... All are fun, but it's just for fun. If you really want to play Bach, it Zwolle has no equal.
The pleasure of playing on it is really impossible to describe. Especially after you install the update. I do not know how fun it is playing the Hinsz, because it had not yet bought. I did not play well at Freiberg, but definitely buy it soon:)

The samples, which at the moment have Zwolle is the most clear, full and fat. Not without reason at Sonus paradisi this instrument is mentioned first. The author is perhaps most proud of him ... I am not surprised.
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Fri May 07, 2010 2:28 pm

Before I decided on the Kampen I really was considering the Zwolle. Listening to the demos I seemed to lean towards the Kampen but liked the fact that Zwolle has surround. What then made up my mind for me was the fact that Zwolle only has two releases rather than three or four. There was a fair amount of discussion on this and Jiri even went back afterward and recorded more releases on another one of his more recent sets, as people complained they could hear the lack of the extra releases. I think it was Freiberg.

Anyway if Zwolle had the extra releases I probably would have bought it over the Kampen only because of the surround. I think the Kampen has a slightly warmer extended reverb, but the surround on the Zwolle probably would have made up for that.

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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby RoyKnight » Fri May 07, 2010 3:14 pm

Before I decided on the Kampen I really was considering the Zwolle. Listening to the demos I seemed to lean towards the Kampen but liked the fact that Zwolle has surround. What then made up my mind for me was the fact that Zwolle only has two releases rather than three or four. There was a fair amount of discussion on this and Jiri even went back afterward and recorded more releases on another one of his more recent sets, as people complained they could hear the lack of the extra releases. I think it was Freiberg.


I love the Kampen - it is probably the organ that I play most. I still load the Zwolle for Bach and Buxtehude, however. I do not notice any deficiencies in the Zwolle sample set; i do know that Jiri plans to update the Zwolle, providing dual screen. I realize that sample recording has come a long way since he sampled the Zwolle, but he surely most have been ahead of his time. Even though the acoustic is very alive and enveloping, there is still a directness of speech that really makes playing Baroque music exciting! As I've said previously - Zwolle seems to breathe with you.

I believe that the Zwolle you will enjoy the most. I use it for a year. I have a mass of other instruments ... Caen ... Forcalquier ... Rabštejn ... All are fun, but it's just for fun. If you really want to play Bach, it Zwolle has no equal.
The pleasure of playing on it is really impossible to describe. Especially after you install the update.


I agree!

Roy
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby ajt » Sat May 08, 2010 4:52 am

pat17 wrote:
This is what I'm doing right now - downloading the Pipeloops which ajt likes to much, and the Hinsz demos...



How have you got on, or is it still downloading?

The video that Iain put up has wonderful playing and a "Bach-like" registration, but I don't find the sound particularly beautiful or distinctive; it's the kind of sound that can be achieved from many an organ. I'm sure the organ is beautiful and wonderful, but I find the beauty in these instruments in the smaller and quieter registrations that one can achieve. Don't just evaluate the big toccatas - they're easy to register and sound great on almost any instrument, including a big French symphonic monster - it's the delicate stuff like the trios and some of the chorale preludes. Try something like O Mensch or Nun komm der heiden or the 2nd movement of the E flat trio.
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby stevebryson » Sat May 08, 2010 5:13 am

ajt wrote:Try something like O Mensch or Nun komm der heiden or the 2nd movement of the E flat trio.


Three of my absolute favorite pieces! They put chills in my spine when I listen to or play them :D :D :D Yes, they demand a beautiful sound. (I'm assuming you mean the Nun komm der heiden in the Orgelbuchlein, though the others are nice)

I've been thinking that for clear sound to help development of technique, a sensible companion organ to the Hinsz or Trost is the $99 1722 Silbermann Marienkirche. It's a very small organ, but with nice clear sound and a lot of personality. As they say, a "little gem".
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby ajt » Sat May 08, 2010 5:26 am

stevebryson wrote:
Three of my absolute favorite pieces! They put chills in my spine when I listen to or play them :D :D :D Yes, they demand a beautiful sound. (I'm assuming you mean the Nun komm der heiden in the Orgelbuchlein, though the others are nice)

I've been thinking that for clear sound to help development of technique, a sensible companion organ to the Hinsz or Trost is the $99 1722 Silbermann Marienkirche. It's a very small organ, but with nice clear sound and a lot of personality. As they say, a "little gem".


Likewise on the pieces. I shall have to try that Silbermann; I've only tried Grosshartmansdorf Is there a trial available?
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby pat17 » Sat May 08, 2010 8:46 am

ajt wrote:How have you got on, or is it still downloading?


I've tried it yesterday, and I must admit both instruments are beautiful. 8)

They are very similar in terms of features, with 21 vs. 24 stops, a very warm Dutch sound which I really love, so it was not that easy to choose...

I've finally selected the Kampen Hinsz, though it's not that easy to make a choice with the limitations of the demos - not all octaves can be played with the Hinsz, and at regular intervals there is no sound coming from the Pipeloops. But, despite being more expensive than the Pipeloops, the Kampen it has the advantage of being evolutive - part II and III are available, if needed be. :wink:

The video that Iain put up has wonderful playing and a "Bach-like" registration, but I don't find the sound particularly beautiful or distinctive; it's the kind of sound that can be achieved from many an organ. I'm sure the organ is beautiful and wonderful, but I find the beauty in these instruments in the smaller and quieter registrations that one can achieve. Don't just evaluate the big toccatas - they're easy to register and sound great on almost any instrument, including a big French symphonic monster - it's the delicate stuff like the trios and some of the chorale preludes. Try something like O Mensch or Nun komm der heiden or the 2nd movement of the E flat trio.


My skills as organist are far too limited to even think of playing a toccata. It was not the big sound I was looking for, but the versatility of a big instrument allowing as many variations as possible. I've tried on both the Kampen and the Pipeloops intimate and large registrations (even though the number of stops available in the demo versions is quite limited indeed), which was helping me to go to the Hinsz. :wink:

Thank you for your help, your suggestions and recommendations ajt. Even though I have been to a somewhat different solution than the one you were favouring, this exchange allowed me to make up my mind - and even more important to me, not to regret another possibility which I would not have clearly identified. 8)

Thank to all the other Hauptwerkians as well for their help. It's really fascinating to be able to exchange views and ideas with real organists that have such an impressive expertise in their domain. Without this forum, I would have been unable to find a single recommendation in my (very) remote area. 8)

Thanks again to all! 8)

PS : the Kampen is still dowloading... Hopefully I shall be able to test it for real today !
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby RoyKnight » Sat May 08, 2010 10:31 am

Patrick - Glad we all could help you in your decision. I know you will love the Kampen; it is wonderful sample set!

Roy
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Re: Which instrument to play Bach?

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Sat May 08, 2010 10:04 pm

And to think I've had volumes II and III since last November and haven't even installed them yet. Guess I've just been to busy, or I forget when I would have time. Than lately I've been experimenting with speakers and have used the excuse that if I had II and III installed, it would take much longer to load after making audio channel changes, which it would. I'll soon need to stop making excuses.

Even so just Volume I is wonderful.

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