MP3 demos in higher quality?

Most sample set vendors currently offer MP3 demos of their wares
only at 128kbps. This makes it difficult to evaluate a sample set's quality.
The artefacts from MP3 compression are clearly audible.

Why not offer higher-quality (eg, 192, 224 or VBR) MP3s
-- or, if download times are an issue, shorter fragments at higher quality?

Just my $0.02,

-Peter Kleynjan
Utrecht, NL

Hello,

I think, the audible artefacts in 128 kBit/s are very small, but present of course. What you perhaps could hear as to be artefacts, are very often original organ pipe sound roughness and distortions.

OrganART Media will offer a special demo CD (1/2004) with all available instruments. When purchasing an organ sample set, the price of the CD will be refunded.

Commercially speaking, if I were selling organ sample sets, I'd make sure my 'product' is presented optimally. By all means, offer a demo CD for those of us without broadband connections, but why be shy about putting some really hi-quality MP3s on the web?

I'm assuming there must be a few 'quality ears' in this forum: am I the only one to hear (or to imagine...) significant degradation due to 128k coding in many current demos and tracks -- especially those involving more complex pieces on big Silbermanns :-) ?

Cheers,
-Peter

[B. Milan]

Hello Peter. Point well taken. I'll work on getting together some higher resolution MP3's, although they will be much shorter. The really noticeable impact of the compression comes with the use of the reeds. Of course it has an impact on all the demos, but not as severe as the reed stops. I will rework a bit of those demos and have them up soon. An instrument of this nature deserves some high quality demonstrations. Ask and you shall receive!

Good suggestion. I have put alternative high bandwidth files for these eleven Virtual Performances:
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track359.htm - 1721 Gottfried Silbermann at St. Georgenkirche: Bach St. Anne Prelude and Fugue, BWV 552
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/trak1094.htm - 1721 Gottfried Silbermann at St. Georgenkirche with added Zimbelstern: Bach In Dir Ist Freude, BV 615
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track710.htm - as above, but an unusual pairing of Bach's Fantasia in C minor, BWV 562 with a convincing completion of the Fugue by Zoltán Göncz.
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track577.htm - 1731 Gottfried Silbermann at Reinhardtsgrimma: Bach Prelude and Fugue in C minor, BWV 546
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track514.htm - 1766 Schmidt organ in Peruc, Czech Republic: Bach Prelude and Fugue in G minor, BWV 535
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track667.htm - 1965 Marcussen & Søn Organ / St. Stefanuschurch: Bach Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 538 (Dorian)
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track791.htm - 2003 Ott House Organ: Bach Partita on Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gütig, BWV 768
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track848.htm - 1877 A. Cavaillé-Coll Organ, Mainz, Germany: Dupré Magnificat 6 (Opus 18, No. 15)
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track917.htm - 1966 Schantz at First Baptist Church of Riverside, California: Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, BWV 565
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/track147.htm - 1993 Richard Rensch Organ at St. Michael / Neckargartach, Germany: Bach Concerto in A minor (after Vivaldi), BWV 593
http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/trak1036.htm - 1997 Mühleisen Orgelbau, St. Cornelius and Cyprian (1997): Jan Vanhal Fugue No. 5

BTW, I applaud (with one hand) everyone who does live recording with Hauptwerk. The reason I don't do this is because I can't anymore.

James Pressler
[Revised 9/12/2007]

James, thanks for the opportunity to compare 128 and 256. You have to listen hard to hear the difference, but I think it's there.

I was also surprised to hear (or to think to hear, etc) a clear improvement in room acoustics. For instance, in the pauses in your BWV535 at Peruc, you can really hear the 'church' at 256k -- and I don't have that experience at 128k.

Anyway, thanks, and I look forward to more high-bitrate (or VBR, if you want to limit the size) samples and tracks.

Cheers,

-Peter

It depends what purpose the MP3s are meant for. If they are supposed as a help deciding about the acquisition of a certain sample set, this is nearly impossible from just listening to such file. There are so many factors not accessible in a finished piece like how the different voices merge when added together, how the reverb behaves, or how precise the re-trigger-phase reflects the overall ambience in a demo to give a true picture of an authentic instrument.
Seen from that side an MP3 file at 128kb/sec may have some artifacts, but these are not as relevant as the points I mentioned. I believe that it can be taken for granted digital sample recording and post pro had been carried out with utmost precision and care. If somebody really wants to know what he (or she) is spending money for, then the demo CD prof. Maier suggests is a preferable approach.

... the demo CD prof. Maier suggests is a preferable approach.

Not to challenge academic authority, but I think I know my own preferences... :-)

Let me summarize them:

1. *If* you use MP3 for organ music, at least code it at 256kbps, and use a proper codec such as LAME. (Best is VBR, with >320kbps maximum rate.) [see below]

2. Anything that can be put on a CD can also be put online.

YMMV, de gustibus non est disputandem, etc.

Cheers,
-Peter

PS: If you have some bandwidth to spare, check out http://www.linus.nl/wav-mp3.html for a little experiment. Apologies for the lack of formatting.

Reading this discussion I would like to add that I have a free sample set (of course, only several stops) which may be freely downloaded from my FTP. So, I think those who do not enjoy mp3s may try out that sample set. I think the mp3s are ment to give the impression only of the timbre of some stops which are interesting and to show the capabilities of the organ (plenum, flutes, ventils...) and not to give the high quality of the sound of each stop. I believe that all sample set producers simply have ONLY very high quality samples. That is obvious.

If MP3 at 320KBPS is not high enough resolution, how about this? Virtually Baroque has launched a new feature - a weekly WAV file.

As of March 27, 2006 I am discontinuing this feature.

A "permanent" list of RAR'd WAV files here:

http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/rarewave.htm

James Pressler

If MP3 at 320KBPS is not high enough resolution, how about this? Virtually Baroque has launched a new experimental feature - a weekly WAV file. Details and the first file are here:

http://www.virtuallybaroque.com/weekwave.htm

James Pressler

Note: in the unlikely event that this creates too much traffic on my server I'll have to discontinue it.

Dear James,

asides from the PM I sent you I would like to say that this is a great idea. I am just listening to the first wave file - what a great "insight" you have into the sound. Just for the curious - did you alter it in any way or is this the pure recording from Hauptwerk?

Christian.

Christian,

These files are recorded directly at the output volume recommended by the sampler using the Hauptwerk capture feature. Some future tracks may have various amounts of reverberation added through Cool Edit. If I have made proper notes, I will identify the recording details, otherwise, I may have to rerecord them.

James Pressler

NO LONGER RELEVANT

JOCR,
Amazing coincidence, or government conspiracy? but your download rota coincides exactly with our local lawn sprinkling schedule. It's getting scary out there. Good Luck!
G'day