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so close, and yet so far

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so close, and yet so far

Postby RaymondList » Fri May 18, 2018 8:35 am

I've rewired my Allen (51 year old discreet transistor) to generate MIDI, using the MIDIBoutique HWCE2. It is feeding a MOTU ULTRALite MK4, then to my MAC OS laptop. I was close to being finished when last night I saw the sale on Hauptwerk. I had my cart filled and was ready to push the button to buy when I hesitated, thinking I'd better not spend anymore money till I'm sure it is working. Glad I did wait. I completed the wiring and hooked everything up. Now the strangeness begins. I did the auto-detect for the keyboards and pedalboard and all was well. When I tried to play a note, when I press the key down, the MOTU shows a MIDI message, but the keyboard on the PC screen does not show movement. Let the key up on the organ and the key goes down on the screen. The key movement is reversed between the actual key and the Hauptwerk key. They all function like that. Let up on key, note turns on, press key, note turns off. All keys do this. Anyone have an idea?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Ray
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby organtechnology » Fri May 18, 2018 10:48 am

RaymondList wrote:I've rewired my Allen (51 year old discreet transistor) to generate MIDI, using the MIDIBoutique HWCE2. It is feeding a MOTU ULTRALite MK4, then to my MAC OS laptop. I was close to being finished when last night I saw the sale on Hauptwerk. I had my cart filled and was ready to push the button to buy when I hesitated, thinking I'd better not spend anymore money till I'm sure it is working. Glad I did wait. I completed the wiring and hooked everything up. Now the strangeness begins. I did the auto-detect for the keyboards and pedalboard and all was well. When I tried to play a note, when I press the key down, the MOTU shows a MIDI message, but the keyboard on the PC screen does not show movement. Let the key up on the organ and the key goes down on the screen. The key movement is reversed between the actual key and the Hauptwerk key. They all function like that. Let up on key, note turns on, press key, note turns off. All keys do this. Anyone have an idea?

Thanks for any suggestions.
Take a laptop running Midiox(PC) or Snoize(OSX) and plug it in to the output of the HWCE2. If there is a cable plugged into the Input of the HWCE2, remove it for now.

Run Midiox and see what MIDI messages you are getting. If you are receiving a MIDI OFF message when you press the key and a MIDI ON message when you let up on the key, there is a problem in the HWCE2 or the wiring is using closed contacts that open when you press down.

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby jkinkennon » Fri May 18, 2018 2:12 pm

Please ensure that any old Allen electronics are disconnected from the keyboards including the bus bars (or equivalent). Each keyboard bus needs to connect to ground and the only voltage to each contact should come from the hwce2 which will be a pullup to +5v. Any other voltages such as plus or minus 12v which remain connected to the keyboards risk damage to the new encoder.

It is possible to use an hwce2 encoder with positive 12v providing each key goes to the encoder via a voltage divider circuit but you likely wouldn't want to preserve the original Allen sound in any case.
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby RaymondList » Fri May 18, 2018 2:48 pm

Thanks for the two replies.
I did use Snoize and indeed when I press a key down, the message is Key UP. When I release the key, the message is Key DOWN.
The HWCE2 that I ordered is for +12 volt keying. I did that to help with any contact 'crud'. All 4 of the scan matrix cards do have a small sticker on them saying they are for +12 to +15 volt keying. There are no electronics in the organ from Allen since I gutted the thing thoroughly. I have a new +12 volt supply feeding the bus. Also, I'm certain all the contacts are normally open, since I combined multiple contacts per note to help with the keying. I used an ohmmeter to find the proper wires to combine, and I'm certain they are correct (hundreds of hours of combining - I could have made an error or two, but certainly not the entire keyboards!). Just to be certain, I just took my volt meter and measured the bus, and a random contact. The bus is sitting at +13 volts, and the key contact is sitting at +0.2 millivolt. It must be a defective HWCE2 or it is programmed incorrectly. I've tried to reprogram it with MidiBoiutique's programming app, but I'm not certain I have good data going to the HWCE2 (I only have a Mac, the software is Window's only - I'm running it under "Parallels" - it seems to be working since the MIDI light on the HWCE2 flashes when I hit the 'update' button on the app.).
I thank you both for the replies. I'm a little 'bummed out' right now. After hundreds of hours, and quite a lot of money already, I don't feel comfortable hitting the 'checkout' button on my cart in Hauptwerk with over $1000.00 in the cart. I guess I'll have to miss out on the sale since I'll have to deal with MidiBoutique, a LONG way from me.
Thanks again!
Ray
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby organtechnology » Fri May 18, 2018 8:19 pm

RaymondList wrote:Thanks for the two replies.
I did use Snoize and indeed when I press a key down, the message is Key UP. When I release the key, the message is Key DOWN.

Is the message key up or MIDI note xx OFF?

The HWCE2 that I ordered is for +12 volt keying. I did that to help with any contact 'crud'. All 4 of the scan matrix cards do have a small sticker on them saying they are for +12 to +15 volt keying.

There are no electronics in the organ from Allen since I gutted the thing thoroughly. I have a new +12 volt supply feeding the bus. Also, I'm certain all the contacts are normally open, since I combined multiple contacts per note to help with the keying. I used an ohmmeter to find the proper wires to combine, and I'm certain they are correct (hundreds of hours of combining - I could have made an error or two, but certainly not the entire keyboards!). Just to be certain, I just took my volt meter and measured the bus, and a random contact. The bus is sitting at +13 volts, and the key contact is sitting at +0.2 millivolt.

Simple test to try. If you have all your common busses connected to +12V, disconnect them from +12 and reconnect them to ground and retry. If the data says MIDI ON when you press the key and MIDI Off when you let up then the problem is the HWCE2 is programmed for a low state (0.2mv) for MIDI note ON and +12vdc for MIDI note OFF. It is still keying +12V but inverted from what you are feeding it. The keymux64 card should be providing +12 Vdc to the unpressed key pin and going to 0.2mv when keyed.

It must be a defective HWCE2 or it is programmed incorrectly. I've tried to reprogram it with MidiBoiutique's programming app, but I'm not certain I have good data going to the HWCE2 (I only have a Mac, the software is Window's only - I'm running it under "Parallels" - it seems to be working since the MIDI light on the HWCE2 flashes when I hit the 'update' button on the app.)

Maybe so, maybe not.

I thank you both for the replies. I'm a little 'bummed out' right now. After hundreds of hours, and quite a lot of money already, I don't feel comfortable hitting the 'checkout' button on my cart in Hauptwerk with over $1000.00 in the cart. I guess I'll have to miss out on the sale since I'll have to deal with MidiBoutique, a LONG way from me. Only as far as your computer screen. Even if he is in Bulgaria :).

I feel your frustration. Been there, done that, learned a lot. The good news is that Jordan is usually very prompt at fixing things that are broken but in my case it has almost always been operator error.

Thanks again!
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby RaymondList » Fri May 18, 2018 8:44 pm

organtechnology wrote:
RaymondList wrote:Thanks for the two replies.
I did use Snoize and indeed when I press a key down, the message is Key UP. When I release the key, the message is Key DOWN.

Is the message key up or MIDI note xx OFF?

You are correct. The messages are note ON and note OFF. I was getting tired!

Simple test to try. If you have all your common busses connected to +12V, disconnect them from +12 and reconnect them to ground and retry. If the data says MIDI ON when you press the key and MIDI Off when you let up then the problem is the HWCE2 is programmed for a low state (0.2mv) for MIDI note ON and +12vdc for MIDI note OFF. It is still keying +12V but inverted from what you are feeding it. The keymux64 card should be providing +12 Vdc to the unpressed key pin and going to 0.2mv when keyed.

Taking the bus to ground results in no MIDI messages being produced. Been there and tried that! I was hoping that was the case!

It must be a defective HWCE2 or it is programmed incorrectly. I've tried to reprogram it with MidiBoiutique's programming app, but I'm not certain I have good data going to the HWCE2 (I only have a Mac, the software is Window's only - I'm running it under "Parallels" - it seems to be working since the MIDI light on the HWCE2 flashes when I hit the 'update' button on the app.)

Maybe so, maybe not.

I completely agree. I wish there was software that could READ the settings in the HWCE2!

I thank you both for the replies. I'm a little 'bummed out' right now. After hundreds of hours, and quite a lot of money already, I don't feel comfortable hitting the 'checkout' button on my cart in Hauptwerk with over $1000.00 in the cart. I guess I'll have to miss out on the sale since I'll have to deal with MidiBoutique, a LONG way from me. Only as far as your computer screen. Even if he is in Bulgaria :).

I feel your frustration. Been there, done that, learned a lot. The good news is that Jordan is usually very prompt at fixing things that are broken but in my case it has almost always been operator error.

Thanks for the encouragement!

Thanks again!
Ray
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby RaymondList » Sat May 19, 2018 1:56 pm

I am now a happy camper! Everything is working as it should. Just to update this thread:
I received an email from Jordan at Midi-Boutique. He stated:
The hwce2 scanmatrices supposed to work with keymux64 configured for positive keying, must be inverted.
Normally hwce2 ships with non-inverted scanmatrices.

He also provided a link to a program I could use to invert those scan matrices. It was quite a simple process once I had the info and program.
Jordan was very helpful. My only complaint with MidiBoutique is that the items were ordered for and configured for positive keying, so I don't understand why they were not programmed with the inverted scan matrices. Or, at the very least, a half-page note could be included with the circuit boards explaining that process and giving the link to the little program. It would have saved me a bunch of head-scratching (and bothering others on this forum!). To all who replied, thanks very, very much! Now over to order the full version of Hauptwerk! Then, back to playing...
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Re: so close, and yet so far

Postby magnaton » Sat May 19, 2018 11:33 pm

RaymondList wrote: Now over to order the full version of Hauptwerk! Then, back to playing...

. . . and staying hydrated with a cool looking Hauptwerk insulated tumbler!
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