Search:
Submit Search


Proposal for small church speaker install

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby SKresge » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:15 pm

I have been using HW for about a year now in the home setting and want to propose it for install at the small church where I am the organist.

We have a cheap 20-25 year old Rogers digital organ with two old crappy speakers to put it nicely. I have taken my computer to the church and done a demo for them to sell them on it, but the speakers get very muddled for load hymn demos.

So i contacted a local sound installing company to get a quote for a 16 channel 14 speaker & sub installation and what i got today was a shock. The church is 30' x 57' and seats 100 if packed, usually more like 50 people weekly, and is a historic 1872 parish. This is what i got, and input or feedback from those knowledgable sound folks would be GREATLY appreciated.

Bag End IPD18-IKS BASS System 8 @ $4,300 ea for $34,400
Bag End CDS-110 10 2 way BLK Ro Tex Install Encl w/F6 14 @$2,471 ea for $34,594
Bag End Yoke-3 for Mounting CD10 14 @ $89 ea for $1,246
MOTU 16A 32x32 $1,495 (this i actually asked for)
Programming MOTU to speakers $1,500
Labor/material $6,000

This note also was on the proposal:
This is what Bag End recommends for this installation. This is the system they put in for digital organs. We would need electric outlets on the back wall and front. One circuit on the back wall and 4 on front. If you do not have an electrician I have one.

So a $5,500 HW setup to convert the old Rodgers will require a $79,235 sound system not counting the electrician to put in outlets for the install.

I am not a sound expert, but this is WAY out of budget for this tiny parish . . .

Again any feedback would be greatly appreciated on how i can go about finding a system that will be great, but not be out of reach for us . . .

Scott
SKresge
Member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:55 am

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby magnaton » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:11 pm

Hi Scott:

The Bag End equipment I have seen were for professional stage applications. If I'm not mistaken, they've taken a page from the Bose audio playbook and recommend or require their signal processor to ensure an enhanced and 'correct' audio experience. As you've read here on the forum, active studio monitors provide the best sound-to-cost ratio for the Hauptwerk experience. Speakers used by digital organ companies, namely Rodgers and Allen, are designed to work with there sound source (samples) and amps as a unified system.

For your size church, you should be able to get by with 8 to 10 speakers plus a sub. I'd recommend the Behringer 2031A active monitor. There has been a recent price reduction, they have a high output of 265 watts, and are being used in many church Hauptwerk installs. Here are 2 references:
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13670
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15699&p=117675&hilit=2031A#p117675

The MOTU MK4 could be a substitute as it has 14 output channels. Then choose a high output subwoofer such as one from SVS or Rhythmik Audio and you should have a more reasonable cost figure. If your church has a choir loft then you are 70% there! This makes for a less complicated install and you get a good full sound that can fill the sanctuary to lead congregation singing. Here is a 9 channel Phoenix using the Hereford sample set with speakers mainly on the ends of the choir risers in a loft. Granted the super live acoustics helps quite for a great sound a bit as you'd expect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY67lpRpV5M


Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby organtechnology » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:59 am

SKresge wrote:I have been using HW for about a year now in the home setting and want to propose it for install at the small church where I am the organist.

We have a cheap 20-25 year old Rogers digital organ with two old crappy speakers to put it nicely. I have taken my computer to the church and done a demo for them to sell them on it, but the speakers get very muddled for load hymn demos.

So i contacted a local sound installing company to get a quote for a 16 channel 14 speaker & sub installation and what i got today was a shock. The church is 30' x 57' and seats 100 if packed, usually more like 50 people weekly, and is a historic 1872 parish. This is what i got, and input or feedback from those knowledgable sound folks would be GREATLY appreciated.

Bag End IPD18-IKS BASS System 8 @ $4,300 ea for $34,400
Bag End CDS-110 10 2 way BLK Ro Tex Install Encl w/F6 14 @$2,471 ea for $34,594
Bag End Yoke-3 for Mounting CD10 14 @ $89 ea for $1,246
MOTU 16A 32x32 $1,495 (this i actually asked for)
Programming MOTU to speakers $1,500
Labor/material $6,000

This note also was on the proposal:
This is what Bag End recommends for this installation. This is the system they put in for digital organs. We would need electric outlets on the back wall and front. One circuit on the back wall and 4 on front. If you do not have an electrician I have one.

So a $5,500 HW setup to convert the old Rodgers will require a $79,235 sound system not counting the electrician to put in outlets for the install.

I am not a sound expert, but this is WAY out of budget for this tiny parish . . .

Again any feedback would be greatly appreciated on how i can go about finding a system that will be great, but not be out of reach for us . . .

Scott


Hi Scott,
I completely agree with you about the price. I did some quick figuring and I think I would use Dante Audio-over-Ethernet and 16 of the speakers Danny mentioned and one servo sub-woofer and come in under $14,000 with labor included. Travel expenses would need to be added of course. You would have an audio system that would allow expansion to a max of 28 speakers and 2 sub-woofers by just adding speakers and re-configuring the system. The console could be 327 feet from the audio system connected by one Cat 6 cable.

Best regards,

Thomas

btw: where are you?
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

Authorized Hauptwerk Dealer; Milan Digital Audio Dealer..
User avatar
organtechnology
Member
 
Posts: 1813
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:58 pm
Location: DFW, TX USA

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby SKresge » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:09 am

Thank you, Danny & Thomas, for your prompt responses!

I am actually in SE Delaware, near the beaches.

I really like the 16 channels and want to go with the MOTU 16A, this will be connected to a Mac Pro and was looking at connecting it with an optical thunderbolt line. OWC has a 10 meter one for $299. I did recommend the Behringer 2031A Active monitors to him and had a sheet with the info as I have seen many here in the forum talk about how well they work. He said “the Behringer’s are horrible and he has had a lot of problems with them and he won’t even carry them”.

Also, once the MOTU and the speakers are hooked up, is the configuration of the speakers from within HW or the program that comes with the MOTU 16A? What would he even be doing for the $1,500?

So, by my estimation this is the hardware I was thinking we needed:
14 Behringer 2031A @ $179 a piece right now = $2,519.86
And a descent subwoofer which looks to be around $1,500
MOTU 16A = $1,500
Thunderbolt cable to connect the Computer to the MOTU unit = $299

Aside from mounting brackets for the monitors, wiring and possible electrical outlets is there something I am missing? The cost prior to these extras in my calculation is just over $5,800.

Scott
SKresge
Member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:55 am

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby dhm » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:16 am

I second the recommendation for the Behringer B2031A active monitors.
In one church install that we did - a much bigger room than the one you describe - we used 3 pairs of these plus an M-Audio SBX-10 sub, all up in the west end choir loft.
This system filled the church effortlessly.
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu / http://www.gundulf.org.uk
User avatar
dhm
Member
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:50 am
Location: Rochester, UK

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby SKresge » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:53 am

magnaton wrote:Then choose a high output subwoofer such as one from SVS or Rhythmik Audio and you should have a more reasonable cost figure. If your church has a choir loft then you are 70% there!


Danny B.


First off NO loft at all. Which makes it tougher.

Been on the SVS website and they strongly recommend two small subs to replace one large one and that would work well for our sanctuary as there is no place in the center to place one.

Was wondering if anyone has had experience with using 2 of the 2000 or the new 3000 series from SVS. And if you use two subs, can they use the same stereo channels (I know you have to use two for a sub) and use it for the aux mix down so many talk about?

Thanks again, you all are helping me understand this much better.

Scott
SKresge
Member
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:55 am

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby magnaton » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:08 pm

SKresge wrote:He said “the Behringer’s are horrible and he has had a lot of problems with them and he won’t even carry them”.

Sounds like a knee jerk reaction. They hit a home run with this particular model. Check out this review:
https://audiosex.pro/threads/knockoff-kings-behringer-b2031a-vs-genelec-1031a.31843/

As an alternative, consider the Presonus Eris E8 monitors in use and recommend by others on this forum (including me) and they've also experienced a price drop 8)

SKresge wrote:Also, once the MOTU and the speakers are hooked up, is the configuration of the speakers from within HW or the program that comes with the MOTU 16A?

Both. The software Motu AVB control webapp is needed to virtually direct your sound source (computer i.e. HW) to the desired output ports. You can download the manual to become familiar with it. At its most basic, you would use the Routing Tab to make the connections which is a diagonal line on the X/Y grid. There is also the capability to add EQ to the outputs if need be. Second, explore the Hauptwerk multichannel aspect defined in the 4.2.1 manual then search the forum here for the terms "multichannel" and "multi channel" as these discuss the various ways to divvy the sound across multiple sets of speakers. BTW, this feature with its flexibility of routing options is what puts Hauptwerk at least 4 steps above any of the big 3 digital organ builders!

SKresge wrote:Aside from mounting brackets for the monitors, wiring and possible electrical outlets is there something I am missing? The cost prior to these extras in my calculation is just over $5,800.

Be sure to include the cost of TRS patch cables that will run from the MOTU interface to the active monitors and subs. Depending on the distance and girth between speakers, you might consider an audio snake:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSS807--hosa-css807-7-meter
Have you given thought regarding VPO system power up and down sequence? If you're looking for a 'single switch' design to turn on console power, computer, and audio then there is a cost of a power sequencer or smart powerstrip and such.

Danny B.
Last edited by magnaton on Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby magnaton » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:51 pm

SKresge wrote:Been on the SVS website and they strongly recommend two small subs to replace one large one and that would work well for our sanctuary as there is no place in the center to place one.

Was wondering if anyone has had experience with using 2 of the 2000 or the new 3000 series from SVS.

The new SVS 3000 looks impressive. I think it has extra features (remote access, etc.) that aren't necessary for an organ install. For the price of one PB-3000 you can get 2 PB-2000 units which have been mentioned here on the forum.

Since you want to use the MOTU 16A interface for 16 "main" channels, you can incorporate the 16A's digital output port as an extra stereo output for your 2 subwoofers. This digital port uses a Toslink (fiber optic) cable to connect to an ADAT (8 channels) or S/PDIF (2 channels, L & R) capable device. Using Motu's web control app, you select the respective configuration for this port. For S/PDIF you will need a digital-analog converter like this:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158316&Description=spdif%20converter&cm_re=spdif_converter-_-15-158-316-_-Product
Then 2 RCA M-M cables (input on the SVS sub is also RCA) to connect them. You'll end up with 18 channels of audio. Sweet!
SKresge wrote:And if you use two subs, can they use the same stereo channels (I know you have to use two for a sub) and use it for the aux mix down so many talk about?

For 2 subs, you would configure the Mix Down stereo output (L & R) and connect them accordingly, Left to one sub, Right to the other. For just one sub, yes both channels (L & R) would require 2 cables into the subwoofer.

Danny B.
User avatar
magnaton
Member
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:28 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:22 pm

I'm running two huge Sonotube subs in my large music room, they are connected as stereo. I definitely prefer two, as the room resonances seem to not be as big an issue vs just one.

Eric
Eric Sagmuller
Member
 
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:18 pm
Location: Bellefonte, PA USA

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby larason2 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:27 pm

At my church, which is a bit bigger than your church, we bought 2 Yorkville YX15P speakers, which we run directly off of a Nord C2D. I’ve run Hauptwerk off of a similar setup, and while it wouldn’t sound as good as the multi speaker setups proposed, they still fill the space quite well. You just have to be careful not to turn the input or output volume too high, otherwise you get distortion. They are active, and have a fair bit of power at 200 watts each, and the wood enclosures cut back on case reverberation. Something like this would probably be the cheapest option, with just 2 1/4 inch cables to the speakers, which you could arrange for mounts for, or use speaker poles. You could always get more of these, and add a subwoofer as well, depending on the interface you have. 8 of these and a subwoofer would probably be more expensive than the options using studio monitors, though definitely not as much of your original quote. They have the other advantage that they are very durable. Less of a concern if you have a permanent setup though. Without a subwoofer you wouldn’t get the best bass response, but I would say it is decent without one (with the exception of 32’ stops, of course, which are audible but not great. You can always get more powerful speakers than these as well, which would improve the fidelity and distortion at usable volumes. There are always less expensive ways of doing things if you are going to do all the groundwork and installation yourself.
larason2
Member
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby organassist » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:24 pm

Just as a complete contrast - I have played in a small church 26 feet by 58 which has a perfectly acceptable home build sound system. Using a 6 channel audio usb (<£100) into a Denon AVR-1909 (ebay - £120) into 5 full range speakers (materials < £200 total) + 1 sub (existing) driven by stereo amp (second-hand - £20). Of course the quality is not what can be obtained by paying more but it has more than enough volume to support a congregation of 50 or so. I am sure there is a solution between this low-budget extreme and your original quotation!
organassist
Member
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:01 am
Location: Colchester, England

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby dw154515 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:21 pm

All of my experiments parallel what everyone else has said. I have 48 of the Behringer monitors in the instrument I'm still building. I honestly cannot speak to the final result yet since it is still being built, but I spent a couple of years building and testing various models and I don't think they can be beat for this application.

I considered something similar to the Bag End when I first started as well - Meyers Sound - but cost just went astronomically high. In the end, I know the Behringer monitors will do great. I am doing the entire project - 4 manual console, 48 main speakers, 4 subs, 2x MOTU 24ao's, for about $20,000. But I'm doing literally ALL of it myself. Roughly $13,000 of that is the audio system. The console is rebuilt from an existing Allen 3 manual console.

I'm sure my two cents here isn't the least bit helpful but, here it is for what it's worth to you.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby johnstump_organist » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:41 pm

For what it is worth, years ago I took my laptop, the little 2 channel Audio interface I was using, and two of my Behringer 2031a's to hook up to a MIDI keyboard where I was going to be playing continuo for a Vivialdi Gloria performance. It was in a Catholic Church seating about 500-600. I accompanied two congregational hymns that were on the program and my 2 Behringers more than supported the singing. The church was more or less full for concert.
John
User avatar
johnstump_organist
Member
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:15 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby jkinkennon » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:55 am

dw154515 wrote:I am doing the entire project - 4 manual console, 48 main speakers, 4 subs, 2x MOTU 24ao's, for about $20,000. But I'm doing literally ALL of it myself. Roughly $13,000 of that is the audio system. The console is rebuilt from an existing Allen 3 manual console..


This really gets to the heart of the matter. I would expect an outside contractor to at least double the $13,000 to do the audio installation. The key to a budget install is the "do it yourself" factor. A dozen Behringer monitors is just adequate for a smaller sanctuary in my opinion and I've heard 48 or so at an area church -- impressive.
jkinkennon
Member
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:43 am
Location: Vancouver, WA

Re: Proposal for small church speaker install

Postby dw154515 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:39 am

jkinkennon wrote:
dw154515 wrote:I am doing the entire project - 4 manual console, 48 main speakers, 4 subs, 2x MOTU 24ao's, for about $20,000. But I'm doing literally ALL of it myself. Roughly $13,000 of that is the audio system. The console is rebuilt from an existing Allen 3 manual console..


This really gets to the heart of the matter. I would expect an outside contractor to at least double the $13,000 to do the audio installation. The key to a budget install is the "do it yourself" factor. A dozen Behringer monitors is just adequate for a smaller sanctuary in my opinion and I've heard 48 or so at an area church -- impressive.


You are correct. Most hi-fi, home theater speaker components have roughly 100% markup - if it sells for $100, the retailer is making $50. Audio interfaces, pro audio, etc. isn't usually quite as much, but close. Amazon and other online retailers have been able to force this margin down considerably - thus causing a lot of instability for other retailers. Then double it again for the cost of labor and installation. $10,000 of speakers (at wholesale cost), will sell for $15-20,000, plus another $10,000 for for installation, and you're up to $30,000. DIY is key if at all possible, to remove costs. Our project would EASILY cost $80,000+ if we paid someone else to do it. Just adding the 4 manual console and 48 speakers to my shopping cart from ClassicMidi, for example, comes out to more than $80,000. I understand this isn't a tit-for-tat, apples to apples comparison, but you get my drift. And I'm also not criticizing ClassicMidi or any other company. They do great work. It's just the nature of business. They, as a company, have overhead. I, as an individual, do not.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
User avatar
dw154515
Member
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Next

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests