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Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...

Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:31 pm

I use the term "line array" loosely. The reinforcement of fundamental frequencies (that is to say lots of stops turned on, thus lots of speakers sounding the same pitch simultaneously) certainly creates a similar effect as the line arrays, in that the sound is MASSIVELY reinforced. No, it's not a true line array, but playing several 8' stops (flutes and diapasons for example), the frequencies are certainly being reinforced by each other. It was an eye-opening experience.

I am in the process of doing an Excel layout of all the speaker routings that I want to try. Namely I want to figure out if mono or stereo is the better option - which could depend on which set is being used - etc.

As I said from the beginning, this is all an experiment. I went into this thing head first with minimal knowledge on the subject, but an ambition to figure it out.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
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Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby engrssc » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:04 pm

There comes a time esp with such large projects to limit or at least minimize the possibilities. Changing too many variables adds to the overall problem. Eventually you come to the realization that there is always something else/more that can be done all the way out to infinity. Arriving at "quite/very good" can be considered ok many times. Then, too, many listeners are not that keen on small details as well as even what they hear depends on where they sit.

Reading a biography of Ernest Skinner showed he had the same issues. When he was "applauded" for building a truly great instrument, he always felt he could do better. It became his passion which was good, but at the same time was a problem for him, that is never being satisfied.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby scottherbert » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:43 pm

Excellent point Ed, My wife is constantly warning me about 'overthinking' something to death! There does come a point of diminishing returns, after which any improvements may be too small to be worth the trouble!

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby 1961TC4ME » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:11 pm

scottherbert wrote:Excellent point Ed, My wife is constantly warning me about 'overthinking' something to death! There does come a point of diminishing returns, after which any improvements may be too small to be worth the trouble!

~S


Haha, same here, been there and done that! If the routing scheme works, probably the only other things that can be tried are going to be something to do with either the way the speakers are pointed, flipping them around to try both tweeters and drivers aligned, or opposite of each other, and possibly moving a few of the ranks around to different speaker groups. As an example, it might sound better with the very highest sounding stops swapped to the speaker groups L / R where the reed stops were, and the reed stops to where the highest pitched were and vice versa. Some of these change may make a nice difference, some might more so result in a flip of the coin either way. One other thing not to forget is...... How does it sound out in the church? What might make a noticeable difference up close may not make any difference one way or the other out in the church. If that's the case then I'd just go with what sounds best up close.

Marc
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby scottherbert » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:42 pm

I just finished moving my organ to another room. I had an idea to set an old sofa table on top of the Ikea table that the keyboards are on. I wanted to use this to set my speakers on. On a whim (during this discussion), I turned the 'big' speakers on their backs to point at the ceiling. What a difference! I didn't even want the secondary speakers hooked up! I don't have multiple channels or surround, just stereo, so I used a second set of speakers for more ambience. Not needed any more, and the clarity is doubled!

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:22 pm

I will hopefully post some more specific details tomorrow evening, but my latest results are nothing short of remarkably good (especially when compared to the original). What a difference routing and speaker placement makes!!

A few things I did in this version:

- all mono samples! (This is a BIG space and the speakers are 25’-30’ Away at minimum.)
- 24 groups, with 2 speakers in each. (Cyclic)
- the top, inner-most pairs on each side (that is to say, top right on the left side, and top left on the right side) are my “solo stops” and “chamade” in a C/C# split
- each group is assigned like-sounding pipes (mostly) of the same length, by division (mostly)
- Celestes, mutations, mixtures for manuals are in one group. (Pedal mixtures are in another) since mixtures and Celeste’s are infrequently played together, this works out well)

I am going to try this out with more sample sets tomorrow (Armley Schulze and SP Reuter) tomorrow and report back in detail.

1961TC4ME wrote: other thing not to forget is...... How does it sound out in the church? What might make a noticeable difference up close may not make any difference one way or the other out in the church. If that's the case then I'd just go with what sounds best up close.

Marc


Yes, for now the old original Allen is still in place. I’ve been rolling the new console into the sanctuary and setting it up in the center aisle to do all testing, then rolling it back out when I’m done. So all my testing is from the “ideal listening spot”
Drew A. Worthen
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby johnstump_organist » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:32 am

If you are going with mono, I would really want to try groups of four with tone matching mode 1 which gets every note every triad into separate channels as well as all four notes of many of the 7th chords as well. This helps enormously with intermodulaion. You could use some 2 speaker groups for solo reeds and pedal stops that won't get played in triads. You could have 10 groups of four and 4 groups of 2. C/c# split is good for pedal stops as that splits 5ths into separate channels, probably the only thing that will get regularly played in the pedal other than single notes and octaves.
John
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:19 pm

Hey folks! It has been quite a while since I posted an update - I've been super busy working on a big music festival with my wife. She's the chairperson. I'm the computer guy. 200+ kids. 500+ events. Tons of work went into that over the last month, but it was a success.

I wanted to report back and let everyone know that I have been experimenting with more routing/speaker placement options. I extended my original 12' shelves to 16', and added a third row. So now, instead of 12 speakers crammed into a 12' space, there are 8 per 16' row, spread over 3 shelves. I also turned them all randomly - some as much as 90 degrees left or right. Major improvement. I'm still just not sure about the routing. It's like each way I try, there things I like, and things I don't.

Tonight I reverted back to doing 2 groups - 1 group of 4 speakers for 32' stops, and all the rest routed to group 2, of 44 speakers, cyclic. And this worked very well. I'm afraid I am chasing my tail at this point.... so....

I think I'm calling the instrument "done."

We are going to make Easter the first service with the new instrument. Sometime in the late Spring / early Summer, we plan to have a big dedication gala event.

In other exciting news, one of the local news stations (Fox59) has approached me about doing a feature story to air a few days before the dedication gala! :D

I had a local theater organist come play the Paramount 341 - he played for about 4hrs and it was so exciting to be able to sit back and listen!

I EXTEND AN OPEN INVITATION TO ANYONE EVER IN THE INDIANAPOLIS AREA TO COME FOR A VISIT AND PLAY!
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby scottherbert » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:18 am

Hi Drew, congratulations!!! It's been quite a journey, and has been a wonderful learning experience along the way. I regret not being able to hear the instrument that I have come to know, and to actually hear the results of all your labors.

Again, congratulations,
~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:50 am

I should like to clarify one thing.

dw154515 wrote:
I think I'm calling the instrument "done."



Notice the "done" is in quotations.

The physical installation is done. I have several alt-configs that I will always be using to experiment with routing. And I'm sure I will always be adding more sets to it.

It, like fashion, will NEVER be truly "done". It will perpetually evolve.

Even since my last post I ordered a sostenuto kick switch from Arndt.

This thing will never be done.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby Orao_22 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:11 pm

dw154515 wrote:I should like to clarify one thing.

This thing will never be done.


And that's why these organs are so great, there's always efforts that are made to make them better! As long as the company can't buy a bona fide castle in Italy or elsewhere to record an actual organ in an actually acoustically impressive place, there'll be ways to make it sound even better... And even then, there'll always be a way.
Last edited by Orao_22 on Sat May 11, 2019 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:48 pm

UUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!


CAEN SURROUND/WET OR METZ!?!?!?!?!?!
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby dw154515 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:21 pm

The TubaHT is now "swinging" to prevent it from rattling and bouncing all over the place. This prevents all the unwanted vibrations from the light fixtures, decking, conduit, plumbing, etc..... I built the swing frame and "base" from 2x6 lumber and used heavy duty cable to suspend the base from the frame. The TubaHT sits on top of that base, "floating" above the structure.

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Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumcmusic.org
Field Engineer - Sensory Technologies
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby OrganoPleno » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:54 am

dw154515 wrote:The TubaHT is now "swinging" to prevent it from rattling and bouncing all over the place. This prevents all the unwanted vibrations from the light fixtures, decking, conduit, plumbing, etc...


Very clever! Thanks for sharing... looks like a beautiful job!
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

Postby brooke.benfield » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:47 pm

Hi Drew;

Does this solution also reduce the effective SPL of the subwoofer?
Brooke Benfield
Organist, Gethsemane Lutheran Church
Portland OR
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