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Composite of Saint Sulpitius - French Symphonic V/102+P

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Composite of Saint Sulpitius - French Symphonic V/102+P

Postby Discipulus.veritatis » Sun May 12, 2019 4:49 pm

V/102+P Dedicated to Saint Sulpitius the Pious

Pedal and Manual Compass extended to 61/32

This composite, dedicated to Saint Sulpitius, is based on the magnificent Cavaille-Coll organ at Saint Sulpice, Paris, in that it replicates the stoplist exactly and uses sample sets that are similar in both sound and acoustics. In spite of this, the composite does not intend to exactly replicate the sound and acoustics at Saint Sulpice, but only to provide a resemblance with the exact stoplist and provided sample sets. The organ is a French Romantic Symphonic sample set, with the some classical elements left from the organ builders before Cavaille-Coll. The reverb time is ca. 7 sec. The sound is as if one is sitting closer to the organ loft than further in the nave, giving clarity yet magnificent reverb.

https://organareginaecaeli.wordpress.co ... the-pious/

Audio Samples and more information available on the our website.

Little demo:

Widor Toccata: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2s048ien500h0 ... 9.mp3?dl=0

(Originally a post about the composite of Saint Peter, but to not create to many new topics this one has been reused)
Last edited by Discipulus.veritatis on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Requirements

Postby Discipulus.veritatis » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:00 pm

Requirements:
Caen 2.5, Notre Dame de Metz, St. Pons Demo
Last edited by Discipulus.veritatis on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Update

Postby Discipulus.veritatis » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:33 am

Upcoming Update:

V1: Revoicing
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Audio sample

Postby Discipulus.veritatis » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:05 pm

Last edited by Discipulus.veritatis on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby dkoschinski » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:59 pm

Regardless of all the work involved, this is very useless for me (and perhaps for others too).
Why is it actually necessary to recreate a composite set to simulate an existing organ? I know !
In addition, the organs by example Doesburg, Brasov and Zutphen are completely in character from each other and they will NEVER (read: NEVER) be able to simulate the fantastic Klais organs in Cologne.
This almost makes me despondent :| .
Discipulus.veritatis, do you actually know how much work a producer puts into developing a set from scratch? And then with the aim of reproducing the orginal character of that organ as well as possible?
How useless is it then that this work is being combined (by someone else) with other organs that have a completely different character? The original Doesburg by example has 4-5 seconds acoustics, so what about to transform this to 8 seconds or longer ? Is this realistic at all ? So please, stop this activity, just to respect the work of those who did put a lot of time into the original sampleset.
In my opinion this also doesn't add anything to the sets that are available so far and thereby it also destroys the regular HW market as well regarding quality samplesets. Incidentally, I also do not understand producers such as Sonus Paradisi that they allow to use samples from their (demo) sets for this purpose. I read that it is not your intention to place an exact replica of the organ in Cologne. But believe me: the character of a Walcker like in Doesburg is completely different from what can be heard in Cologne. So don't call it a 'Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral)' !
I think you have never heard the real organ live in Cologne. This specific Klais-sound can't be reproduced by anything else recorded somewhere unless it has been recorded on location ! So these so called 'composite samplesets' add nothing at all. The producers of such also use demo-samples from established producers for free (from a certain organ with a specific character) as intended. Very easy to deliver to the users (and for free!) while those demo samples were basically meant to give a user insight into that particular sampleset....
I understand very well what you want to achieve, but in my opinion this result (and origin) is very bad for Hauptwerk at all !
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby einer_von_weitem » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:33 am

I agree with dkoschinski. I find this notion of providing "composites" (??) of real existing organs where not a single note was actually recorded from these organs themselves puzzling, to say the least, I really do not see the utility. I also think that dkoschinski is right that this sort of activity tends to undermine Hauptwerk as a reputable way to produce organ music -- as if Hauptwerkers didn't have to contend with enough prejudice already! My feeling is that this prejudice is diminishing because more and more people convince themselves of the real quality of Hauptwerk sample sets -- something to which, in the best case, these "composites" probably do not contribute. In fact they may well invite ridicule among the "non-believers" in Hauptwerk.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby josq » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:57 am

I think the above comments make sense. One comment : a bit of searching makes clear that these composites are made by a young person with tremendous enthusiasm for organ music. That should answer any ridicule.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby Patrick Larhant » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:44 pm

There are composites and composites.
The St Ouen composite (Aristide n°1) is IMHO a great quality product which is a result of a very long work and emulates very well the real thing.
Nothing similar to the flow of composites so called Ste Clotilde, Cologne, Notre-Dame and so on, which are produced by organareginacaeli almost a new one every two weeks and have a sound which has nothing to do with the real thing.
Doing that for one's self private pleasure, OK. But publishing them - with legendary organs names - NO ! It's pure usurpation.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby monorganist » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:30 am

Patrick Larhant wrote:Doing that for one's self private pleasure, OK. But publishing them - with legendary organs names - NO ! It's pure usurpation.

I totally agree.
Even being the St Ouen composite so close to the real thing, the producers were respectful enough to name it "Aristide".
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby Wall.e » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:41 pm

dkoschinski wrote:Regardless of all the work involved, this is very useless for me (and perhaps for others too).
Why is it actually necessary to recreate a composite set to simulate an existing organ? I know !
In addition, the organs by example Doesburg, Brasov and Zutphen are completely in character from each other and they will NEVER (read: NEVER) be able to simulate the fantastic Klais organs in Cologne.
This almost makes me despondent :| .
Discipulus.veritatis, do you actually know how much work a producer puts into developing a set from scratch? And then with the aim of reproducing the orginal character of that organ as well as possible?
How useless is it then that this work is being combined (by someone else) with other organs that have a completely different character? The original Doesburg by example has 4-5 seconds acoustics, so what about to transform this to 8 seconds or longer ? Is this realistic at all ? So please, stop this activity, just to respect the work of those who did put a lot of time into the original sampleset.
In my opinion this also doesn't add anything to the sets that are available so far and thereby it also destroys the regular HW market as well regarding quality samplesets. Incidentally, I also do not understand producers such as Sonus Paradisi that they allow to use samples from their (demo) sets for this purpose. I read that it is not your intention to place an exact replica of the organ in Cologne. But believe me: the character of a Walcker like in Doesburg is completely different from what can be heard in Cologne. So don't call it a 'Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral)' !
I think you have never heard the real organ live in Cologne. This specific Klais-sound can't be reproduced by anything else recorded somewhere unless it has been recorded on location ! So these so called 'composite samplesets' add nothing at all. The producers of such also use demo-samples from established producers for free (from a certain organ with a specific character) as intended. Very easy to deliver to the users (and for free!) while those demo samples were basically meant to give a user insight into that particular sampleset....
I understand very well what you want to achieve, but in my opinion this result (and origin) is very bad for Hauptwerk at all !


I totally agree! If you listen carefully to these "composites" you can hear a lot of glitches and other disturbing effects, which results from the point that 1) you can't put some sets together and 2) it is nearly impossible to merge 2 different organs in a convincing process (except the Aristide, but look at the effort which was taken: the mixtures have been built rank by rank etc) 3) you never will "emulate" a Klais with a Cavaillé-Coll.
These composites they are neither a good testimony for the organ builder nor for the sample manufacturer, because they show neither the quality of one nor the other.
I hesitated for a long time whether I should write at all, regarding the fact that criticism that criticism was seen as a personal attack and assault on the Catholic Church. Well, I decided to keep silent; in the meantime 4 more composites have been released.
This isn't meant as a personal assault, but I'd appreciate it if there weren't any more composites.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby Mixtuur4st » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:14 pm

This isn't meant as a personal assault, but I'd appreciate it if there weren't any more composites.

I agree 100 %.
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby smfrank » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:36 pm

Mixtuur4st wrote:
This isn't meant as a personal assault, but I'd appreciate it if there weren't any more composites.

If you're not interested, just ignore them!
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby adri » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Thank you all in joining me (see my several earlier posts) in my great displeasure in what discipulus is doing here; I am greatly surprised that Jiri Zurek hasn't already stopped him. Many points I made before are being repeated now by you, and I am happy about this, because now I am no longer one of the few who have expressed displeasure about this before, but also in private to him. Alas, to no avail. The chorus of displeasure with this is growing. I hope that discipulus is humbly listening to this growing chorus. Please, Jason?

I was also approached by one sample set maker who surely wishes to remain anonymous expressing great displeasure and consternation about what's happening here, and that was many months ago already! Since then, so many new composite sets have been announced by Jason. Too many.

It is totally beyond me how anyone can possibly produce new "composite sample sets" about every two weeks. The above-referenced CC-set is indeed the work of a team of people, plus beta testers, laboring at it for a very long period. If they were to now suddenly come out with new composite sets about every month, nobody would take them seriously anymore.

Indeed, whatever Jason wants to do for his own enjoyment is of course totally fine and within his rights (as long as the sample set maker allows this kind of tinkering), but I agree that bringing this to the Hauptwerk community and even trying to make money from it, seems quite out of place and ultimately a disservice and a lowering of standards. I have gone as far as to possibly call it a form of plagiarism.

Dear Jason Baruk: Please listen to all of us here and keep your efforts just private.

I stand with those who feel that our HW community is not being served by what you are doing publicly. Personally I find the posted audio samples below of what can be and what is to be expected in 2019. We have come a long way since the beginning of HW, and I have been here since the very early days. One of my first sets was the one-manual Silbermann by Brett Milan and the Italian and castle organ by OAM. Indeed, we have come a long way since then.

If you listen to recent sample sets, which I have, such as e.g. the Furtwangler by Pipeloops, the Annaberg Walcker by OAM, and the Van Deventer organ of Nijkerk by Voxus, you might discover what I am talking about. All very high quality sets. Add to that the recently updated organs published by Inspired Acoustics, the sets by Lavender, etc. I am sure I am overlooking some here.

Sample set makers have beta testers, who play/test all kinds of music on the to-be-released new sample sets, and give feedback for improvements. That is a very good way to ensure high quality.

Do you have beta testers? If you had, you would have quickly discovered from the feedback that to perfect even a composite set, will be one heck of a gigantic job. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but you are going about it the wrong way. And this is why the chorus against what you are doing is growing.

Why not try to sample at high quality an actual organ yourself to find out what's truly involved? And get beta testers?

Mixing baroque organs with romantic ones, mixing samples with different reverbs, voicings, tunings, etc., all means having to water down the sound qualities in order to arrive at a lower or possibly lowest common denominator composite set. It may sound OK to you, but not to us.

I am an organist and an organ expert (my Ph. D is in organology), and your approach just does not strike me as kosher whatsoever. OK for private use, no problem, but not fit for public consumption. If you had beta testers, you would find out what you would have to do to make a really good set. And you might just want to quit at that point. It's that hard.

So, pretty please, Jason, just please listen to us and keep your efforts wonderfully private?

We greatly thank you in advance.

Peace,
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby giwro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:46 pm

Wall.e wrote:
dkoschinski wrote:This isn't meant as a personal assault, but I'd appreciate it if there weren't any more composites.


I don't really care for them myself either, but the fact is that unless the original sample producers ask that the sets not be used this way (or disallow it in the ODF) OR MDA asks that the practice be discontinued, you really don't have the right to tell someone to stop doing it. Yes, you can say you don't like it, but it's not really up to anyone to try to intimidate Discipulus and make it stop. Furthermore, a lot of the comments have been rather mean-spirited....

I get it. These sets don't sound anything near the "real thing". And, yes, the 2 sets that attempt to emulate St. Ouen are much better (and, as a sample producer, I'd say they are VERY well done). I know people get worked up about historic instruments, and it all gets very personal and offends people easily....

The problem is, it still comes across as a personal assault.

You don't like them? Don't use them. You want it to stop? Complain to the sample mfg or MDA.

Err on the side of kindness... organists have a poor enough reputation for being cranky old curmudgeons as it is - we don't need to make it worse. :roll:
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Re: Composite of Saint Peter (Cologne Cathedral) IV/90+P

Postby adri » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:58 am

I hope I have not sounded unkind.

I have no intention to be unkind or to start some kind of "war" or "war of words".

While it may be a right for a person to do so, if the overall community for whom it is intended feels quite awkward about it, shouldn't the originator reflectively and even humbly start thinking about this feedback instead of just forging ahead like the opinion of third parties do not matter? Is that a good strategy? Does that create goodwill? It creates a disconnect that serves no one.

I feel the respect should be practiced both ways: I respect Jason for his right to do what he is doing, and I feel he should equally respect the - in this case critical - feedback he is receiving. That should tell him that way more work is needed to bring forth a really good sample set.

I believe it's a good thing to hold people up to the highest possible quality standards, rather than to bring things down from that common lofty goal and settle for less. Quality should come first, economics second. In Holland we say: "goedkoop is duurkoop". Often mistranslated as "you get what you pay for", but it really means that to buy something that is low quality but has a low price (the reason why you bought it) is actually an expensive way of going about things, because soon you have to replace it and then you have spend money twice.

This is why I brought up the issue of beta testers. I like to encourage JB to make a composite set to the best of his abilities and have at least 5 discerning people beta test it and provide the necessary and useful critical feedback. Or produce a set from scratch.

To strive for the highest possible standards is normal in human nature. And it is a good thing. The car I rented recently is so much better than the same model nearly 15 years older I drove in the recent past. I would like to inspire JB to set his goals higher.

Respectfully submitted,
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