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Note-on, note off on stop knobs

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Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby waltk » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:32 am

Environment: Mac Mini i5 16 Gb memory, Mojave 10.14.5. Hauptwerk 4.2.1, Mt. Carmel Skinner, Menesterol, and St Anne.

I've stripped out a 1970s era Rodgers 330 and converted it to a MIDI controller. Everything works pretty well, but the stop action is a bit clunky. I set it up the way I did looking at the trial edition and the manuals.

Stops on this era are SPDT momentary contact switches (pull and release turns the stop on, doing an on-off on contact 1, push and release turns the stop off, doing an on-off on contact 2) which indicate their status through a light (light on is stop on).

I've wired it to DTS encoders and drivers to do this. For example on one stop on the swell:
* pull generates note on on note 92 on channel 06 and then generates note off on the same note and channel on release
* push generates note on on note 93 on channel 06 and then generates note off on the same note and channel on release
* the LED in the stop knob is lit on note on on note 87 on channel 07 and is extinguished by a note off on the same note and channel

I've made it work in Hauptwerk by (based on autosense response) using "Momentary Piston: MIDI note-on" with primary input (in this case) set to note 92, Input 2 set to note 93, and Primary output set to "MIDI note-on/off" on note 87 on channel 07. It works, but it's not wonderful. For example, if I just flat-hand push a half-dozen drawknobs the way you would on a solenoid-driven console, the ones that are on go off (yeah!), but the stops that were off have now toggled to on.

The only "Input from MIDI stop/piston or key" that allows both "on" and "off" notes is the Generic MIDI key aftertouch, but I don't seem to get stop changes with this set up. This may be due to not setting "On" value/index and "Off" value

How do I make this work with "proper" on/off?

Thanks for your help!

Walter Knowles
Everett, WA
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby GrahamH » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am

Hello Walter

I had a similar dilemma when I wanted my home-made illuminated draw-knobs to come "on" (instead of toggling) when I pulled them, and go "off" (instead of toggling) when I pushed them.
What you need is a custom-programmed MIDI encoder that sends a note-on message only when you pull the knob to close switch #1, but no corresponding note-off message when you release the knob thus opening switch #1 again. And that sends a note-off message only (same note), when you push the knob to close switch #2, but no corresponding note-on message when you release the knob thus opening switch #2 again.

With this arrangement you can then configure Hauptwerk to send matching MIDI out messages to control the LEDs in your draw-knobs, so that your physical draw-knobs always echo the state of your on-screen virtual draw-knobs.


If you can make and programme your own MIDI encoders, great! If not, you need to enlist the help of somebody who will do it for you.

Good luck
.
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby GrahamH » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am

Duplicate post deleted!
Last edited by GrahamH on Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby engrssc » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:06 am

Hi Walter,

It's a little bit involved procedure, but is doable and works reliably. I'll get back shortly.
A similar, but different procedure can be done for lighted pistons.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby waltk » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:53 pm

GrahamH wrote:If you can make and programme your own MIDI encoders, great! If not, you need to enlist the help of somebody who will do it for you.
Graham

Well, I'm really not a hardware guy, so this isn't really an option. I've considered the software analogue: write a filter on the MIDI stream that listens to the stop knobs on channels 05 and 06 and spits out latched messages on 08. Could even make it so that it handles the lights in the abstraction. It's a simple table look up....

But what I'm hoping for is that since there are only a zillion of these consoles floating around, and it looks like there are controls in the dialogs for doing this trick that there that this is something I can without dusting off my compiler.
Thanks,
Walt
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby engrssc » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:27 pm

Trust me, it's not that complicated at all. Initially when I wanted to do this, I received some misguided info. I can give more details (if needed) later when I'm home. Very basically, you need 2 encoders. One encoder is set (programmed) to send Note-on (only) MIDI messages, and the other encoder is set (programmed) to send Note-off (only) MIDI messages. Both encoders are set up to "send" on the same MIDI channel. Your LED lights are driven by a separate decoder set to receive MIDI messages on the same MIDI channel as the above encoders are sending. A decoder receives the MIDI Note-on message(s) and turns the appropriate LED on. The Note-off message for that stop turns the LED off. Really quite simple when you think of it that way.

Quite obviously the draw knob turn on (pull) Normal Open switch contacts connect to the encoder sending the MIDI Note-on messages while the turn off (push) Normal Open switch contacts are connected to the encoder sending MIDI Note-off messages. A single (common) for both N/O switches. So you need 3 wires, one common wire, one selective wire to the Note-on encoder and one selective wire to the Note-off encoder for each draw knob.

Once these connections are set up and connected via a Midi Interface to the computer, you can use Hauptwerk's auto detect feature. You right click the stop (on the sample set display page). you want to operate from your physical draw knob. Click on the auto-detect (top option). Pull the draw knob you want to use to control that stop. Click on the Done button when it is highlighted. You want the Done button to be highlighted and clicked on when the LED is not lit. You may have to operate (pull - push) the physical draw knob several times to get this operation correct. To click on the Done button when the LED is not lit.

After clicking the Done button, a secondary page could pop up asking if you want that stop to be controlled by more than one, or just one specific switch. This is an option. I use it for some physical drawknobs to turn on more than one sample set stop. For instance, on Redlands the single physical Swell draw knob for the Oboe stop turns on both the Swell Oboe as well as the Solo Orchestral Oboe.

Now an important part of the set up:
Go back and again right click on the stop you just set up on the sample set's (stop) display screen. This time click on the manual set up (3rd down) option. On the (top right of this page) Primary Input, on the Input box pull down, select Stop: Viscount 6-byte constant sys-ex msgs option.

On the MIDI In Port, (mine is set to) Micro Lite Port 2 (This setting would depend on which MIDI interface you use.)

Next click on the (top) Primary Output - Output box, select: Auto MIDI output (match to primary input settings).

Last step:
On the MIDI out port select (All enabled ports)

There are Test On and Test Off boxes near the bottom (right side) of the page you can use to verify the set up. Test on should turn the physical draw knob's LED on while the Test off should turn it off.
If you don't select the (All enabled ports) option, the LED won't be controlled by HW. That includes being turned off via General Cancel.

Don't forget to OK the page.

The selected physical draw knob should now control the HW stop and the physical draw knob's LED should light up appropriately.

I'm using 2 - BBS-1K (64 input) boards https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBS-1K&R2=USD for the encoders. one sending MIDI Note-on messages, the other sending MIDI Note-off messages. For the decoder I'm using a MIDECO (64 input) board.https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MIDECO&R2=USD. These 3 boards along with 1 - MRG2 https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2&R2=USD provide control for up to 64 lighted draw knobs. (The 2 - BBS-1K boards can be daisy chained).. Additional draw knobs could be controlled by adding additional boards. These boards are set up/programmed by a plugged in Keypad (into a spare socket of the MRG2) https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?R2=USD&section=prod_info&product=KEYPAD

BTW, many decoders can drive a low current LED directly. If you need to switch higher currents, there are plug-in boards (for the MIDECO) to do that.

Using a BBS-1K encoder, the programming code (as entered by the keypad) is #2132 for Note-on only.
Using a BBS-1K encoder, the programming code (as entered by the keypad) is #2133 for Note-off only.

An important note, since the programming information for each plugged in board is stored on the MRG2 master controller, each board needs to remain plugged in it's respective socket on the MRG2.

I use the same circuit configuration for control of the lighted coupler rail rocker tabs.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby csw900 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:34 am

Very interesting procedure - Does this have to be repeated for each organ you play?
Or does HW remember it for all organs?

Maybe that's why I use a touch screen to set stops!

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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby GrahamH » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:42 am

Does this have to be repeated for each organ you play?


If you have physical stop switches, as with pistons, you need to configure them for each new organ that you install, but not each time you load or play the organ.
Configuring the stops is a relatively speedy and painless process with Hauptwerk's auto-detect facility.
But labelling the stops is another story! If you regularly like to play a variety of organs, touch-screens are much more convenient.
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby engrssc » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:29 am

My above post was in response to the original request of this thread.
Personally, even tho I have touch screens available, I very much prefer
the real draw knobs as I do much hand registering while playing. As
well, my early organ training was on a 4 manual real pipe(s) instrument.

While the above set up procedure seems involved, which to some
extent it is,, I find once you get familiar with it, the process goes fairly
fast. The real issue is the stop labeling. Interesting, we now have
both Armeley and Redlands available on the church organ. While the
sounds are different, many of the stop names (by division) are the
same. It took approx 25 minutes to set up the (lighted) draw knob
stops when we installed the new Redlands sample set.

One of the key elements of the above procedure is the encoders
being able to send either Note-on or Note-off only MIDI messages..

And, yes,we need to mentally fudge just a bit because the draw
knobs are labeled per the Armley specification.

OTOH, voicing Redlands has taken quite a bit of (interesting)
time. Well worth it tho. 8) Presently, the voicing is still a work in
progress.


Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby organtechnology » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:14 pm

engrssc wrote:One of the key elements of the above procedure is the encoders
being able to send either Note-on or Note-off only MIDI messages..


Rgds,
Ed


So can you point at 1 or 2 encoders by model and brand that will do this?

Best regards,

Thomas
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info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com

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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby engrssc » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:26 pm

Both of these encoders can be programmed to send either Note-on only or Note-off only MIDI messages:

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBS-1K with 64 inputs

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBSP with 32 inputs.

Both encoders need to connect to a Master Controller

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2

The programming is done with a Keypad

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=KEYPAD

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby organtechnology » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:22 pm

engrssc wrote:Both of these encoders can be programmed to send either Note-on only or Note-off only MIDI messages:

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBS-1K with 64 inputs

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBSP with 32 inputs.

Both encoders need to connect to a Master Controller

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2

The programming is done with a Keypad

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=KEYPAD

Rgds,
Ed


Thanks Ed. I am getting to know them now.

Thomas
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Re: Note-on, note off on stop knobs

Postby engrssc » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:40 pm

organtechnology wrote:Thanks Ed. I am getting to know them now.


I'm sure you'll like the products Roman (Sowa) builds as they are very innovative and easy to work with. There are a great many built-in features that these products have that are accessed by keying in a code with the key pad. As well, his prices are very reasonable. He does ship by FedEx. After placing my last order, I had the boards 3 days later, and not with special handling up charges either. So many of his boards are physically very small but very functional.

Rgds,
Ed
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