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Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

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solotibia

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Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 4:25 am

For my 96kHz Hauptwerk installation the improvements in the audio wrought by V6 represent a great move forward in realism and authenticity And critically for any VTPO, tremulants have a greater swing in their step!

I would sometimes hear glimpses of what V6 audio delivers, especially post V5. But now to have such great sound all the time......how will anything else get done!

In these days where most are in a race to the bottom, I applaud Martin for even considering taking Hauptwerk further up the high definition quality audio path. Thank you! Thank you!

And thank you François for your assistance with getting me started with V6.
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 5:32 am

I agree with you about the improvements in the audio. At last I am no longer getting a muddy sound with full organ, and for the first time I can use the high mixtures without being constantly distracted by distortion. There was a big jump going from 4 to 5, but the better sound in 6 alone is worth the cost and trouble of upgrading.
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 5:57 am

Thanks very much, Ian and Julian.

Glad you like it!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Frank_VTPO

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 6:41 am

Thank you for these observations!
Can one only profit from this improvement effect when usind a soundcard which is set to 96 kHz sampling rate, or is 48 kHz already sufficient to notice this?
I need to check, if my computer and my soundcards are capable of increasing the sampling rate to 96 kHz.
By the way, do I understand correctly that the operating systems (for both, Windows and Mac) have not changed compared to HW V?
Regards,
Frank_VTPO
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tocata

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 6:42 am

Please, could you explain what is needed to reap the benefits of 96Khz audio?


Thanks a lot.
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micdev

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 6:54 am

Thanks Ian for the kind words.
Best regards
François

Virtually sharing my enthusiasm and experience with you
Worldwide technical assistance, consultation and ready to play system.

http://www.HauptwerkConsultant.com

AND Hauptwerk Support Manager
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:11 am

tocata wrote:Please, could you explain what is needed to reap the benefits of 96Khz audio?


Hello tocata,

There are two relevant settings in Hauptwerk v6: the 'Audio engine | Real-time audio pitch-shifting quality' organ preference (which has a new 'higher definition' option), and the 'Sample rate (for audio engine and audio output)' setting on the 'General settings | Audio device and channels' screen (which now allows 96 kHz to be used for any sample set, even for 48/44.1 kHz ones).

Have a read through the 'Audio engine changes' section in the release notice for full details: https://www.hauptwerk.com/documentation/ . (It's rather lengthy, so I won't try to cover it in depth again here.) Briefly, enabling either or both of those options ('higher definition' and/or 96 kHz) will potentially give noticeable audible improvements, with the former being the one that makes the most obvious difference in most cases.

Enabling either one roughly halves the polyphony that your computer is likely to be able to achieve, and enabling both will reduce it by roughly 75% in total. You you need to adjust the polyohony limit setting accordingly, or you may need a more powerful computer if you still want to achieve more polyphony than that.

Also, if you want to use the 96 kHz option (which runs the audio engine at 96 kHz, and also outputs audio at 96 kHz, so as to avoid any additional down-sampling) then your audio interface would need to support at least 96 kHz, as almost all modern audio interfaces do.

There's no need for sample sets themselves to be 96 kHz -- it gives much the same quality benefits for sample sets of any rates. (Almost all current sample sets are 48 kHz.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Anto800

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:22 am

So, let me understand: the sample sets that are supplied at 48 KHz (often sampled with higher frequencies, but then reduced to 48Khz) magically hw6 “rebuilds” the 96 KHz resolution with computer data that does not exist in the current sample sets? And what for? do we really need this resolution? do we all have sound cards and speakers capable of supporting and reproducing these resolutions? However, 48 KHz sample sets remain at 48 KHz. My sound card also supports 192 khz, but with hauptwerk it automatically sets to 48 khz for most samples, while for 16 bit ones it automatically sets to 44. This frequency (44 kHz) is the standard frequency of sampling for CDs and digital media. I really don't understand all this free enthusiasm.
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tocata

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:23 am

Thanks Martin for the prompt and insightful answer.

You haven’t seen the draft of my question which I then cut down to just the simple question I posted, but that was precisely the answer I was looking for: sample sets requirement.

I believe my Focusrite 2nd gen is capable of it, plus the few sample sets I use are rather small organs, so polyphony won’t be a problem.

The question is if my speakers or headphones and hearing are capable of 96khz audio :D
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IainStinson

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:35 am

Eidt: I took too long to write the reply! (See the comments above....)

The Release Notice for HW 6 https://www.hauptwerk.com/download/171160/ on page 12 goes into detail about the additional functions in HW 6 for supporting higher quality audio. You need sufficient processing power in your system to support this, an audio interface which will run at 96KHz and an audio system (amps and speakers and headphones) which render the sound in well enough so you can hear the improvements..

I have found that the sound is improved using moderate sized sample sets but I have concerns that for large multichannel sample sets, these options may make demands on the processing capacity of my computer system which can't be sustained. The 96KHz option is a General setting (for all sample sets) and the Real-time audio pitch-shifting quality" is a per organ setting.

I think from reading the Notes, using both options would demand four times as much CPU to sustain the same level of polyphony. This may not be a problem with lots of newer processors. If you have lots of spare processor capacity this is probably a great pair of options to try.

I've not (yet) experimented with these independently. I'd be interested in what others have found using them in different combinations. I can see using alternative configurations might be a way to benefit from this where you can't use it for the largest, most demanding sample sets.

Iain
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tocata

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:40 am

Anto800 wrote:So, let me understand: the sample sets that are supplied at 48 KHz (often sampled with higher frequencies, but then reduced to 48Khz) magically hw6 “rebuilds” the 96 KHz resolution with computer data that does not exist in the current sample sets? And what for? do we really need this resolution? do we all have sound cards and speakers capable of supporting and reproducing these resolutions? However, 48 KHz sample sets remain at 48 KHz. My sound card also supports 192 khz, but with hauptwerk it automatically sets to 48 khz for most samples, while for 16 bit ones it automatically sets to 44. This frequency (44 kHz) is the standard frequency of sampling for CDs and digital media. I really don't understand all this free enthusiasm.


Aren’t many sample sets recorded at 96khz and then downsampled to 48khz?

Now, I imagine the resulting sample set has more definition than if recorded at a lower sample rate to begin with.

I also imagine if played back at a higher sample rate again (is it called oversampling?) some of the 96khz recording compressed into 44.1 or 48khz could be restored?
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:48 am

Thanks, tocata and Ian.

tocata wrote:The question is if my speakers or headphones and hearing are capable of 96khz audio


Actually, the main benefit of the 96 kHz option is that it runs the audio engine at 96 kHz, thus avoiding aliasing distortion when pipes' pitches rise by more than a certain amount (because it massively increases the frequency headroom before that could occur, and because Hauptwerk doesn't use per-pipe anti-aliasing filters, which would increase CPU demands by about as much as simply running the audio engine at 96 kHz, with the 96 kHz engine also avoiding any slight additional distortion that such anti-aliasing filters would themselves entail).

Your ears and headphones don't need to be able to very hear high frequencies to benefit from it -- a small amount of aliasing distortion would otherwise be present (if raising pipes' pitches significantly, and depending on where/whether the sample set producer had applied anti-aliasing filters in the samples) even within low/mid frequencies.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 7:56 am

Hello Anton/tocata,

Anto800 wrote:So, let me understand: the sample sets that are supplied at 48 KHz (often sampled with higher frequencies, but then reduced to 48Khz) magically hw6 “rebuilds” the 96 KHz resolution with computer data that does not exist in the current sample sets? And what for? do we really need this resolution? do we all have sound cards and speakers capable of supporting and reproducing these resolutions? However, 48 KHz sample sets remain at 48 KHz. My sound card also supports 192 khz, but with hauptwerk it automatically sets to 48 khz for most samples, while for 16 bit ones it automatically sets to 44. This frequency (44 kHz) is the standard frequency of sampling for CDs and digital media. I really don't understand all this free enthusiasm.


No -- the 96 kHz option applies equally to all sample sets (it's a 'General settings' level option). Its benefit is that it potentially reduces audible aliasing distortion at all frequencies (not just very high frequencies). See my previous reply that I just posted for more details.

[It doesn't (and couldn't) reconstruct any ultra-high frequencies (above the Nyquist frequency) and even if that were possible, it would be irrelevant anyway, except perhaps to bats!]

You will potentially get much the same benefit for 48/44.1 kHz sample sets, regardless of their recorded sample rates, or the sample rates of the sample files supplied within the sample set.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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tocata

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 8:07 am

mdyde wrote:Hello Anton/tocata,

Anto800 wrote:So, let me understand: the sample sets that are supplied at 48 KHz (often sampled with higher frequencies, but then reduced to 48Khz) magically hw6 “rebuilds” the 96 KHz resolution with computer data that does not exist in the current sample sets? And what for? do we really need this resolution? do we all have sound cards and speakers capable of supporting and reproducing these resolutions? However, 48 KHz sample sets remain at 48 KHz. My sound card also supports 192 khz, but with hauptwerk it automatically sets to 48 khz for most samples, while for 16 bit ones it automatically sets to 44. This frequency (44 kHz) is the standard frequency of sampling for CDs and digital media. I really don't understand all this free enthusiasm.


No -- the 96 kHz option applies equally to all sample sets (it's a 'General settings' level option). Its benefit is that it potentially reduces audible aliasing distortion at all frequencies (not just very high frequencies). See my previous reply that I just posted for more details.

[It doesn't (and couldn't) reconstruct any ultra-high frequencies (above the Nyquist frequency) and even if that were possible, it would be irrelevant anyway, except perhaps to bats!]

You will potentially get much the same benefit for 48/44.1 kHz sample sets, regardless of their recorded sample rates, or the sample rates of the sample files supplied within the sample set.


So, in essence that means HW‘s audio engine has reached its final peak, and anything above and beyond 96Khz won’t have any potential benefits?
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk V6 Audio! Wow!

PostSun Nov 22, 2020 8:20 am

There would be no significant advantage in allowing its audio engine sample rate to go higher than 96 kHz, since 96 kHz is ample to allow sufficient upward pitch-shifting without aliasing for the frequencies present in samples that would be within the audible range.

(There is always potentially some scope for further audio/realism increases in other areas, of course.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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