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HW VI within a DAW

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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Michael D

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HW VI within a DAW

PostMon Jan 11, 2021 3:00 pm

I am attempting to use HW VI Advanced within a DAW and having little to no luck. What I would like to be able to do is record directly into the DAW with stop changes, etc. I would like to be able to play to the click of the project within the DAW. I was hoping to take the "analog" signal and not have to use the MIDI "signal." I have tried to use both GarageBand and Reaper, and can't get either to work. I am sure that there is a setting that I am missing.

Can anyone help me with this?
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randallschmid

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostMon Jan 11, 2021 4:41 pm

Below is a link to Hauptwerk's document for setting up Reaper

https://manualzz.com/doc/7485904/hauptw ... sequencing
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostTue Jan 12, 2021 4:44 am

Hello Michael,

The document that Randall linked to is a copy of an older version (from Hauptwerk v4 and an old version of Reaper). The current version of the documentation for doing what you're trying to do is in the 'MIDI sequencing, the Hauptwerk AU/VST Link and applying external realtime effects plug-ins: Recording, playing back and editing live solo performances with a MIDI sequencer dedicated exclusively to Hauptwerk (Advanced Edition only) (Bi-directional control of the sequencer from Hauptwerk)' sub-section of the main Hauptwerk user guide (on the Help menu in Hauptwerk, pages 253-259 in the current v6.0.1 version).

(The current version of the documentation no longer tries to list the exact screen/setting names in Reaper, since they kept changing so frequently that it was effectively impossible for us to keep the previous documentation up to date -- it now just lists generically what needs to be set up in the host/sequencer application, i.e. Reaper in this case.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Michael D

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostThu Jan 28, 2021 7:41 pm

Thank you all for the help. I now understand how that all works, but have run into another problem. It is actually with the MIDI implementation from Reaper back into HW. Once I was able to get the audio working, I realized there were some creative possibilities that actually using the MIDI enabled. However, I cannot seem to get Reaper to communicate with HW as expected. I have set up multiple MIDI tracks, one for each keyboard and pedal (slaved to the main track - so running only one version of the AUi). When recording, the tracks work as expected (Pedal plays the pedal into the pedal track, great plays the great into the great track, etc.) However, upon playback I cannot seem to get the correct track to play back on the correct manual. So, the notes recorded into the great track play back on the pedal track, swell notes on the great, etc.

I have tried every conceivable combination of MIDI routing in Reaper. I have set the individual MIDI channels in HW to match. Is there a setting (basic MIDI channel?) that I am missing?

Any thoughts?
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 5:12 am

Hello Michael,

Please first check that:

- On the 'General settings | MIDI ports | MIDI IN ports' screen tab you have the 'Hauptwerk AU/VST Link column ticked in the 'Hauptwerk MIDI recorder/player external MIDI IN' row (the bottom row of the grid).

- Likewise, the 'Hauptwerk AU/VST Link column should be ticked in the 'Hauptwerk MIDI recorder/player external MIDI OUT' row on the 'General settings | MIDI ports | MIDI OUT ports' screen tab.

- OK the screen.

- In Reaper's preferences, make sure that all MIDI devices are set to disabled (both MIDI input devices and MIDI output devices).

- Load St. Anne's in Hauptwerk (if it isn't already loaded).

Also, in your Reaper project, for each of your MIDI tracks in turn, you might need to make sure that the track (or its events) is set to send on the MIDI output channel number corresponding to that shown for the relevant virtual keyboard within the 'Recording | View Hauptwerk MIDI recorder/player fixed, predefined MIDI implementation (for this organ)' document. For example, for St. Anne's the Pedal would need to be channel 1, the Great channel 2, and the Swell channel 3. I don't use Reaper regularly myself, but in most sequencers/DAWs (such as Cubase) each MIDI track will have a MIDI output channel setting whereby you select a MIDI channel number or something like 'all/any' (with the latter meaning that the individual recorded MIDI events' original MIDI channels will be used).

When recording, each of the MIDI events that Hauptwerk records/sends will have the correct MIDI channel, but if you split them onto separate tracks in your sequencer/DAW then you potentially need to make sure that each of the sequencer/DAW tracks are either set to use the correct MIDI output channels, or that they're just set to play the MIDI events with their original recorded MIDI channels.

(I don't remember off-hand where that track setting is in Reaper, but I expect its user documentation will cover that.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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randallschmid

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 6:12 am

This is to share a few concepts that eluded me when first recording HW.

1. Every sample set has a fix midi definition defined by the sample set. This definition determines which stops are pulled when a particular midi event is received and the division that is played when a midi note is received on a particular channel.

2. Since end-user's midi controllers can be different, HW provides a midi transformer to convert the midi data received ;from the controllers into the fixed midi definition that the sample set understands. The translation is set up in HW by right mouse click midi assign and keyboard/floating division channel assignments,

3. The end-user has a choice whether or not to use HW's midi transformer. On the HW midi port screen, if you choose a left side (console) check box, your controller or DAW midi data from that port will pass through the HW midi transformer before being sent to HW's sample player. If you choose a right side check box, HW will assume the midi data has already been transformed and will be sent directly to the sample player.

The fixed midi definition for St. Anne's is channel 1 pedal, 2 great and 3 swell. Let's assume your controller is sending great on channel 1, swell on channel 2 and pedal on channel 3 and you have set your keyboard definitions on HW appropriately and you have configured Reaper to its receive midi data from HWvstlink rather from your console directly. On the HW's midi port Output tab, if you select left side check box for HWvstlink you will be sending untransformed data (pedal on channel 3) to Reaper. If you select the right side, you will be sending transformed data (pedal on channel 1).

Therefore, if the wrong division is sounding during playback from Reaper and the track's midi data was received via HWvstlink, one of following has happened:

1. Reaper recorded untransformed data (left side midi Out was checked during recording) and HW is expecting transformed data (right side midi IN checked during playback).
2. Reaper recorded transformed data (right side) and HW is expecting untransformed data (left side).
3. Reaper itself has transformed the data by selecting a particular channel number on the track in Reaper, rather than "Any/All/Omni", which would leave the originally recorded channel unchanged.
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 6:24 am

Thanks, Randall, for the additional notes. Just to clarify one point in Randall's post:

By 'left-hand side' MIDI IN port Randall's referring to a 'Console MIDI IN' row in Hauptwerk v6, and by 'right-hand side' port he's referring to the 'MIDI recorder/player external MIDI IN' row in v6. (In v6 those are rows on the MIDI ports screen, whereas in v5 and earlier they were columns.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Michael D

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 9:52 am

This is excellent! That fixed the main problem. I was misunderstanding the [i]MIDI in/out[i] assignment tables. Randallschmid's explanation of what those tables actually do helped me realize my mistake. (Also, now that I realize it, the switch from rows to columns between v5 and v6 was (a very small) part of the problem).
I was doing everything the way I thought the user help manual was describing, but in the end, I was not.

HOWEVER, NOW I am not clear on how to get Reaper to record stop changes -- I assume they are recorded as MIDI control changes, but they are not going onto the track. I don't think the control interface makes a difference, BUT, I do use Novation LaunchPad mk3 Minis for my combination action control.
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 10:14 am

Hello Michael,

Glad to hear it's nearly there.

When routing MIDI from Hauptwerk to the sequencer/DAW (Reaper) via Hauptwerk's 'MIDI recorder/player external MIDI OUT' port, Hauptwerk will always send messages from its stops as MIDI NRPNs, as listed in the 'Virtual stop/coupler/tremulant switches and pistons/buttons' section of the 'Recording | View Hauptwerk MIDI recorder/player fixed, predefined MIDI implementation (for this organ)' document. For any given NRPN a value of 0 means 'turn switch/stop off' and a non-zero value means 'turn switch/stop on'.

Within the MIDI standard, effectively NRPNs are actually implemented a string of three (or four) MIDI control changes (NRPN MSB, NRPN LSB, value MSB, optionally value LSB). Some sequencers handle NRPNs natively as 'NRPNs', whereas others (less conveniently) just treat them as strings of control changes.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Michael D

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 1:41 pm

Sorry to seem dumb about this. I am getting back into MIDI after years (25+) not really having done it much. Boy, have things changed.

I can see in Reaper's MIDI editor where the control changes are (In this particular instance, CC50-52) which correspond to the stop changes I made. I can see that they are all being sent down channel 1. Should HW be able to read these as they are, or is there an intermediate step?

I am not clear how the CC is defined, and what is being sent. I do know that Reaper does not currently support NRPNs, so that could be the problem.
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 2:45 pm

Hello Michael,

This page has has an introduction to NRPNs:

http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

Any sequencer/DAW that can record/replay MIDI CCs can record/replay NRPNs (as long as it plays them back in the same order that it recorded them), since NRPNs are comprised of CCs.

(MIDI NRPNs have actually been around since the 1980s.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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randallschmid

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 3:27 pm

Michael,

You have not identified whether Reaper is recording the raw (v6,"console...") midi data or the transformed (v6 "Midi player...") data. Either will work, but there are advantages and disadvantages to either method.

Advantages to recording transformed midi data:

1. Since every stop change is recorded individually, the data is independent from user registration changes made in the future.
2. The midi data can be exported to a midi file and played using HW's internal player. Any HW installation with the same sample set can play the file.

Disadvantages to recording transformed midi data:

1. Since the stop changes are recorded individually in the project timeline, you cannot reliably position the project cursor and expect to hear the appropriate registration at that point in time. You must issue a general cancel and rewind to the beginning of the piece.

Advantages to recording console midi data.
1. The midi events that change user registration are recorded rather than the individual stops. This makes editing registration in the DAW much easier since you can deal with note data in the piano roll editor - rather than the transformed NRPN, CC and Sysex data the sample set requires. Using right-click midi assign you can assign a musical notes to a registration changes. The midi assigned notes should be on a different midi channel than your console, or outside the scope of the divisions or the note will sound when played back. When starting playback in the middle of a piece, simply start the playback at the note that sets the registration.

Disadvantages to recording console midi data:
1. In order to create a transformed midi file that will play directly in HW without a DAW, you will need to run it through HW's midi transformer by playing the file in your DAW and recording it in HW, or changing HW's vstlink midi output to "Midi.." and recording the midi data that HW sends back to the DAW when the DAW is playing the "console" track.
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OrganoPleno

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Jan 29, 2021 5:44 pm

Michael D wrote:HOWEVER, NOW I am not clear on how to get Reaper to record stop changes...


There's another way to let your Sequencer handle your Registration changes. For a given piece of music (MIDI file), on a given Hauptwerk Sample Set... create a Stack of Registrations in the Registration Stepper, so that by pressing "Stepper Plus" at the appropriate moments, you run through all of the Registrations, in order, required for the performance of that piece.

Then set the Organ such that the "Stepper Plus" is triggered by a simple MIDI message that cannot be generated unless you intend it. For example, trigger by "Note ON", middle C, on Channel 8.

Then in your MIDI file, create a "Registration Track"... on Channel 8, with nothing else using Channel 8... and then enter a "Middle C" at the appropriate moments in your Score for each change of Registration.

If you need to record Registration Changes made spontaneously during Live Play, you can do this using the built-in Hauptwerk MIDI Recorder. Then playing back this recording within Hauptwerk (on the same Sample Set) will correctly reproduce all of your Registrations, such that they can be captured (saved to a Piston during playback?) and documented. These results could then be used to set up the Registration Stepper to use as outlined above.

Good Luck!
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Michael D

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostThu Mar 04, 2021 8:50 pm

It has taken me a long time to sort out the information that was presented (very helpfully) by this group. A bit like drinking from a fire hose. I can answer definitively that I am recording transformed MIDI data. The hack for control that I have used is to take the third manual and dedicate the lowest octave to general pistons. The projects that I am recording rarely (or never) will require three manuals, so I can give up the lowest octave. It works like a charm, and I can also hand-input the piston changes into the piano-roll MIDI.

Thanks for the help! I am even getting a better handle on the MIDI!
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mdyde

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Re: HW VI within a DAW

PostFri Mar 05, 2021 5:11 am

Thanks very much, Michael. Excellent.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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