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Bovenkerk Hinsz Afsluiting Question

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BarryG

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Bovenkerk Hinsz Afsluiting Question

PostThu Oct 23, 2008 10:55 am

Do the Afsluiters control wind for all the stops for their respective manuals? That is, setting the Afsluiting makes all open stops work or not for that manual?

And do they not work without the wind model, that is, in the copies for the US market (like mine)? They seem to have no effect that I can detect.

Will appreciate enlightnment/education.

(Apologies if I've missed this somewhere in the documentation and in my internet searches.)

Barry Gerken
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B. Milan

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 11:04 am

Hello Barry,

The Afsluiting knobs are connected directly to the windchests, so they will have no effect on those people not using the wind model. To answer your question, yes they will shut off wind to the respective division only when used in conjunction with the wind model being activated. These always default to on so you will have wind upon loading the organ. On the real organ there are actally wedges placed between the stop shaft and the opening to prevent them from being pushed in.
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Grant_Youngman

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 11:58 am

B. Milan wrote:Hello Barry,

The Afsluiting knobs are connected directly to the windchests, so they will have no effect on those people not using the wind model.


So is there any renewed hope of getting the wind model restrictions lifted before the patent expires in 2013 (or something like that)? It's remarkable that in the US one can take basic laws of physics and patent their application.

As a relatively old guy already, I should live so long --- :)
Grant
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Stefanussen

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 12:18 pm

2013? I thought it was sooner than that? Like this year or next?
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polikimre

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 12:31 pm

Noone has ever confirmed that this is the one, but there is this U.S. patent 5,508,472 ("Method and apparatus for emulating the pitch varying effects of pipe organ wind systems and acoustic coupling in an electronic musical instrument") issued in 1996 to Rodgers Instrument Corporation. Expires in 2013.
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adri

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 12:51 pm

Link to the patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=HJEnAA ... =4#PPA1,M1

Legally speaking, there is a difference between electronic emulation and software generated emulation.

I am sure this case could be won in court; the only issue here is probably money, as lawyers are expensive.

I am going to read the entire text of the patent.
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Stefanussen

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 1:34 pm

If that is the patent in question, then I'm quite surprised that it is keeping US users from using the wind model. From what I understand, patents have to be pretty specific, and the fact that the wind model would be done in software, not through the kind of circuitry shown in the patent, would seem to make any kind of patent disputes completely irrelevant. Let us know what you find, adri.
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telemanr

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 2:14 pm

Am I a bit slow? I can't see the point of the Afsluiting knobs. I mean on an actual organ. Especially since Brett points out that the Hinz has wedged them on at the actual console. There must be a reason for them but I just can't see it at the moment. I certainly haven't felt the need to use them either on the Hinz or the Zwolle.

Rob
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Grant_Youngman

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 2:21 pm

Stefanussen wrote:From what I understand, patents have to be pretty specific, and the fact that the wind model would be done in software, not through the kind of circuitry shown in the patent, would seem to make any kind of patent disputes completely irrelevant.


Probably not. The preferred embodiment may be analog, but a digital option is also discussed. The claims are quite general in this regard as well.

I suspect that whether it were analog, digital, or made of potatoes, one would have to go after the claims (which are generally always the point of contention), and not the fact that the embodiment in the patent is one technology or another.

I don't recall that anyone has ever confirmed that Rodgers is the culprit, by the way. There has been a reticence to provide any details, for reasons which may well go beyond this specific issue.
Grant
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Jon Hammond

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 6:41 pm

Physical apparatus must be successfully demonstrated to win a patent. One can't just patent an idea that exists in abstract. So is this apparatus electronic, digital, analog having software, firmware, microwave or fiber optic coupling - what are the patentable specifics?
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polikimre

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PostThu Oct 23, 2008 6:59 pm

Jon Hammond wrote:One can't just patent an idea that exists in abstract.


Unfortunately, they can, at least in the US.
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gingercat

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PostFri Oct 24, 2008 3:01 am

Seems bizarre to me that you can effectively patent the mathematics of how wind pressure affects sounding pipes. Perhaps I'll apply for a patent on how an apple falls from a tree, then charge anyone that uses gravity - that includes all of you, so if you'd just like to pay now... ;)
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Chris Blaylock
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imcg110

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PostFri Oct 24, 2008 6:42 am

gingercat wrote:Seems bizarre to me that you can effectively patent the mathematics of how wind pressure affects sounding pipes. Perhaps I'll apply for a patent on how an apple falls from a tree, then charge anyone that uses gravity - that includes all of you, so if you'd just like to pay now... ;)



So if I pick the apple back up off the ground you have to pay me????? :-)
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micdev

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PostFri Oct 24, 2008 8:00 am

No Ian, you still have to pay polikimre because your apple is still affected by gravity... on the moon that same apple would weight 6 times less... no I think that Polikimre has "the idea" to make him the next Bill Gates (in $$$).

Think about it, just standing up involves "gravity patented by polikimre"... without it you would float all over the place.... the same for your organ, computer, speakers... this can become quite expensive to pay all these rights :-)
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gingercat

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PostFri Oct 24, 2008 8:11 am

Only it was good old Gingercat that got there first! Look, theft of my patent already and it only took a few hours!
Regards,
Chris Blaylock
i5 4670k, 32GB RAM, Win7, 2xELO 1280x1024 Touchscreens, Focusrite Saffire, MIDISport 4x4
4 Manual Console, 32 R&C Pedalboard, 3xExpression, Solenoid coupler tabs
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