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Bovenkerk Hinsz organ (Kampen) - First beta demo

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...
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B. Milan

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PostMon Jun 09, 2008 2:27 am

Hi Brett, thanks for the new demo, it sounds great! At first, I wasn't so sold on the idea of the Kampen because it didn't have the eclectic tonal palette commonly found on American Classic organs, but after closely listening to the demo, I've decided that the tonal philosophy (lots of mixtures) of the Kampen organ has its own appeal.

I have a couple of questions regarding the new structure of this sample set. I'm excited about the way it will be done using expansion packs since it will mean we'll be able to get our hands on the sample set sooner. I do have one concern though. I suspect that the entire organ could be quite expensive if done in a modular fashion. I know you haven't nailed down the pricing, but could you say if you see the Kampen organ having roughly the same price per virtual rank as the Metz for example?

Also, when you say you hope to have the first set available in the near future, are we talking near future as in next 3 months or end of the year near future? :)


Hello Rob,

Thanks for the compliments.

I'm afraid I really can't give many details on a release date or pricing scheme just yet. All 3 volumes of the organ should be completed before the end of this year if that gives you any idea. Volume 1 (due out first!) ;) is progressing quite well, so that's about all we can tell you for now.
Last edited by B. Milan on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RoyKnight

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PostMon Jun 09, 2008 7:58 am

Hi Brett,

With your new posting, and the fugue, I am totally convinced this is the Bach organ I must have. This is a sound worth waiting for. I really appreciate your idea of versatility and flexibility in installation configurations. I'll be watching.

Roy
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chorn

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PostMon Jun 09, 2008 2:37 pm

Jim Reid wrote:The following photo shows my bearded face peering down from up at the organ toward my wife, who took the photo ...

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203 ... Kampen.jpg

Nice picture, Jim, except that you and your friends all look like you're made of stone. A shame there's that nutter standing over on the right side.
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Franz64

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 9:39 am

Hi,
I have some comments and questions for Brett:
I find the Eb praeludium rather convincing; however, the first version more than the latter. I think that the pedal basuin 16' (and maybe also manual reeds) is too much dominant on the scene, with respect to upperwork. So my first question: exactly which stops are used in the latter demo?
Moreover, in a piece like that, I would certainly use manual couplers, to augment the number of upperwork ranks, and (not least) to broaden their tonal spectrum. The single HW mixtur III-V is perhaps too low-pitched...This leads to another question:
can you indicate the composition of all mixtures and compound mutations (including sesquialtera and terzian) of the Bovenkerk organ? Unfortunately I could not find them anywhere on the web.
I find the Eb fugue less convincing, but this has more to do with the quality of the MIDI file, so I am waiting for more demos...

Thanks,
Francesco
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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 10:08 am

only starting pitches given, not the repetitions:
(from Het Historische Orgel in Nederland, Encyclopedia)


Hope this helps


Tertiaan HW: 2, 1-3/5

Mixtuur HW: Low C: 1-1/3, 1, 2/3

Scherp HW: C: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4

Mixtuur RW: C: 1, 2/3 , 1/2

Sesquialter RW: middle C: 1-2/3, 2, 1-3/5

Scherp BW: Low C: 2/3, 1/2, 1/3

Carillion: middle C: 4, 1-3/5, 1

pitch: 1/2 note lower than a = 435
equal temperament
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Franz64

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 11:24 am

Thanks Adri, very interesting...
now, if Brett does not fill in the info on mixture repetitions, I can only try to guess where they are.
I may best assume that the scheme is the same as another Hinsz organ, e.g. that in Leens, whose mixtures are reported in detail at www.hauptwerk.nl, i.e. two repetition each octave. What happens then?
The first rank of the HW mixtuur would break back to 5 1/3' at c'. Does this mixtur therefore belong only to the 16' plenum? This might well be the case for the HW, based on a prestant 16'. But what about the Rugwerk mixtur, presumably breaking to 5 1/3' at g', with no 16' principal/flue stop in that manual? very interesting! Has anyone more info?
In general, all Kampen mixtures seem consistently low-pitched, compared to those of Leens, but also of Alkmaar (in both latter organs, the uppermost ranks of the mixtuur are 1/4', and those of the scherp 1/6', at low C). No 1/6' rank exists at Kampen, apparently (and I would say, unfortunately). Is this lack of very high pitches compensated by intonation of mixtures? Or are my suppositions on repetitions wrong? In either case, what a difference between two organs built by Hinsz himself!
Also unusual is the terzian, with octave and third instead of third and fifth.
And the 19th-century Carillon, a very curious stop!

If anybody has more technical info, please post it! And, Brett, please post more demos: there are so many "plenum" combination possibilities with this organ, that we need a sample of each one!...

Francesco
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Dutch Brad

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 2:10 pm

Mixture HW

C: 1 1/3 - 1 - 2/3
f: 1 1/3 - 1 - 1 - 2/3
c1: 4 - 2 2/3 - 2 2/3 - 2
g1: 4 - 2 2/3 - 2 2/3 - 2 - 2
g#2: 4 - 4 - 2 2/3 - 2 2/3 -2

Mixture RW

C: 1 - 2/3 - 1/2
c: 1 1/3 - 1 - 2/3
g: 2 - 1 1/3 - 2
c1: 2 2/3 - 2 - 1 1/3 - 1
d2: 2 2/3 - 2 - 2 - 1 1/3

The RW Mixture is actually a Scherp

The first organs of Hinsz (especially Leens) were built in the style of F.C. Schnitger. Schnitger used much higher pitches in his mixtures such as in Alkmaar and Vollenhove. By the 1740s many of the high pitch stops, such as Cymbels, were disappearing, and as far as that is concerned Hinsz was simply a man of his time.

The Kampen Carillon is not unique and is a typical Dutch stop dating back to the 18th century.
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adri

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 4:27 pm

HW Scherp:
C: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4
c: 2/3, 1/2, 1/3
c': 1-1/3, 1, 2/3
c2: 2-2/3, 2. 1-1/3



Scherp BVW:
C: 2/3, 1/2, 1/3
c: 1, 2/3, 1/2
c1: 2, 1-1/3, 1
c2: 2-2/3, 2, 1-1/3

The Carillon is from 1830
HW Mixture: 1676/1687/1743
HW Scherp: 1975
HW Tertiaan: 1975

RW Mixture: 1676/1687/1743
RW Sesquialtera: 1975

BWV Scherp: 1975


For complete dating of pipes see:
http://home.planet.nl/~bovenkerk/hinsznl.html
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imcg110

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 5:49 pm

......and for the linguistically challenged:
http://home.planet.nl/~bovenkerk/hinszuk.html
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B. Milan

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PostWed Jun 11, 2008 9:28 pm

Thanks to all for the information provided thus far.

The beta demo is just that, beta. Very few stops were used. Here is the list of what was used for both the Prelude and Fugue:

All Hoofdwerk manual:
Prestant 8
Octaaf 4
Super Octaaf 2
Tertiaan II
Mixtuur 3-5
Trompete 8

Pedaal:
Subbas 16
Octaaf 8
Bazuin 16

HW-PD Coupler

That's all, just 9 ranks. Considering that I hope you can appreciate the sound that has come from so few ranks being used. Of course there is a lack of upper work ranks and this will be corrected for the next batch of demos once more ranks are ready to be demonstrated. The HW Trompete is a very strong rank which can easily hold its own against the rest of the division. We didn't try to fool anybody with the MIDI files and stated they were such, so there of course will be things that are not convincing. I had mentioned this in the first post of the thread as well as a second time when I redid the beta demos. Also it might be worth noting that no balancing or voicing of any sort has been done, this is a completely off the shelf rendering of how the ranks were originally sampled. It goes to show how well maintained the Bovenkerk instrument is. IIRC only 2 notes from the entire organ were having issues during the sampling session. In my experience in dealing with recordings and organ playing, that's a pretty good track record for an organ of this size!

The HW Mixtuur breaks at middle C, and there is only that one break. This stop is a divided rank that plays as either bass, discant, or both depending on which Mixtuur stop is pulled or if both are pulled together (bass on the left jamb, discant on the right). The Tertiaan is a non-breaking rank, thus it runs the full compass of the keyboard with no breaks. I'd need to go to the original source files for the other mixturs and mutations to see what their breaks are since I do not remember off hand (we visited the organ in January 2007) and those ranks are not yet loading in Hauptwerk for testing. However, once we get them processed I'll try to remember to post another note about their compass characteristics.

If you visit this link:

http://www.debovenkerk.nl/page_3186.htm

you can see each rank that is divided by searching for the B/D labels. The virtual organ will have the same layout once all finished. Those ranks marked with only a "D" begin from middle C, such as the Sexquialter.

This page:

http://www.debovenkerk.nl/page_318.htm

has links to the original specifications and the modifications that were made through the years along with which builders performed those changes.
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Franz64

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PostThu Jun 12, 2008 7:10 pm

Thanks to all for this useful information!

Well, I think that the HW Scherp is a proper complement to the HW Mixtuur, extending it to very high pitches. Moreover, since the scherp breaks back one half-octave (in pitch) each octave (on the keyboard), there is a net ascending pitch, unlike that in Leens which repeats always the same octave in pitch. In summary, the Kampen HW mixture+scherp should be no less high-pitched in the middle-treble range than the Leens or Alkmaar mixtures, despite they are less so in the bass.
One more reason to be anxious of hearing more demos of Kampen...
and, Brett, in no way I mean that you are fooling someone, I simply noted that in the demo the sound was not like I expected it.
The various replies have entirely explained why: the mixtur discant is exceptionally low-pitched (I never imagined that 4', 2 2/3', 2' at c1 makes a mixture...). And what a strong break between the bass and discant...no one rank in the discant is a continuation of any in the bass mixtur! A leap backwards by one octave and a half! Actually, I seem to notice in various places in the Eb praeludium this break. Really amazing. I wonder what its purpose was in Hinsz' mind (a B/D split mixture is not commonplace). If he bothered to build it as two stops, he probably expected that they would not necessarily be used together. Likely, the addition of the scherp would help masking the discontinuity between B/D. But I may only guess until a demo is out....

Regards,
Francesco
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PostThu Jun 12, 2008 9:03 pm

For congregational singing accompaniment, such low mixtures make a lot of sense to aid the voice of the lower singing men. Hinsch' last organ in Uithuizermeeden,

c1= now 5-1/3, 4, 3-1/5, 2-2/3, and 2 but this is apparently a faulty reconstruction and is supposed to have been 4, 3 1/5, 2-2/3, and 2.

But as you can see, the Mixture has become a kind of Cornet in the treble.

For photo see
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/4784273.jpg
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PostFri Jun 13, 2008 7:28 am

Hi Brett,

It is a very beautifull organ and acoustics you are working on. I hope the sampleset will reflect reality!
Do you plan a extended version, like Jiri did to the Zwolle sample set? Hope you will extend the manuals up to f'''.

Greetings from Zwolle (near to Kampen).

Fokko
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PostFri Jun 13, 2008 5:15 pm

B. Milan wrote:no balancing or voicing of any sort has been done, this is a completely
off the shelf rendering of how the ranks were originally sampled.


Hmm... that explains... I was hearing the note G near the
440 Hz key, in Super Octaaf 2 stop, way tooooo loud! :)

Congratulations on the instrument, I'm
looking forward for final version!

Regards.

-A
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A Wonderful Sound!

PostSat Jun 14, 2008 2:35 am

Hello All,

Brett, those nine ranks sound fantastic!

For what it's worth, here are some of the YouTube clips of the Hinsz Organ, Kampen Bovenkerk . The first one listed as "Wim Magré - Alle roem is uitgesloten (Jan Zwart 1877-1937)" is just about as magnificent a sound as one could ever wish for. Just think, we will be able to have this kind of sound available in our own homes!!! (Given a large enough computer, that is.)

I can't even imagine what a huge job it must have been for Brett to sample such an instrument! I sure hope I can afford this one!!! Just think of having the totally clean and clear HW3 sound with this complete organ. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vXS_wVpIlI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeUihwTb6J0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLw84YaM ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YESZU3k ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYbBXErQ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=num3JtI_ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWzLvxj_ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVWgWiD ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL89DWek ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwMRnyCwhl4

The youtube recorded sound is not perfect, but the wonderful organ does shine through, and the visuals of the organ are quite interesting.

Be well,

Leo Chris.
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