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Upgrading to better technology

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Antoni Scott

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Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 12:10 pm

My Hauptwerk System is 2008 vintage. The computer was upgraded to a 2011 MacPro 12 core (333 Ghz) with 96 GB ram for future sample sets, etc. I was wondering about my external Midi interface (sound card), which is a PreSonus FP10, purchased in 2008. I looked up recommendations on the Hauptwerk site and they still recommend the PreSonus FP10, which is no longer available. Is it recommeded to upgrage the Midi interface to the latest version available ? Will they sound better ? Is the sound improvement with Hauptwerk Version V noticeable ?
I was reading about the Nancy sample set and Piotr Grabowsi seems to think the CPU could affect the sound quality, which means some are better than others ? Which ones are better ? Is the CPU in a 2011 Mac good/bad ?
Its hard to work yourself through all of the variables.
Antoni
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mdyde

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 12:55 pm

Hello Antoni,

Any professional/semi-professional audio interface made in the past 15 years or so (including your Presonus) will itself be capable of very high audio quality, and I doubt you would hear a significant difference solely by changing your audio interface. The main reasons to upgrade it would be if it was no longer compatible with current computer platforms (operating systems, hardware, drivers, etc.), or if you wanted more audio output channels for driving additional speakers.

CPUs don't *directly* affect sound quality -- only indirectly in terms of whether they have sufficient processing power to handle the sample sets you want to use with the audio/realism quality options in Hauptwerk that you want to use with them. Hauptwerk v6 has settings that allow you to get noticeably better audio quality/realism, but they need more processing power:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19209&start=60#p146005

mdyde wrote:
Antoni Scott wrote:Will my sound be improved to the fullest extent that Version VI provides even if I am using a vintage computer (in my case the MacPro 12 core from 2010 or 2011, not sure which one) ? I'm concerned that my computer's internal workings or my external sound card may not be compatible with the latest audio software improvements in Version VI.


If your computer is compatible with v5 then it will also be compatible with v6 -- there are no changes in platform prerequisites between the two versions, so if your computer can run v5 then it can run v6, as I covered in more detail in your previous topics:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19390
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19185&start=45#p145935

If you want to use Hauptwerk v6's 96 kHz audio output option then your audio interface will need to support 96 kHz. Any professional/semi-professional audio interface made in the past 15 or so years will almost certainly be capable of 96 kHz audio output, but you could check your interface's specifications or documentation to verify that if needed.

The two new higher-quality audio options are more CPU-intensive. Any v5/v6-compatible computer will be able to use them, but if you enable both of the higher-quality options (for maximum audio quality) then you will need to reduce you polyphony limit setting to about 25% of the value that you would use in v5 (or in v6 if you don't have the two higher-quality audio options turned on). Thus you would be able to play considerably less pipes at once. That probably isn't too much of a limitation with a 12-core computer, but it's something to be aware of.

However, bear in mind that the two new higher-quality audio options are indeed options -- you don't have to turn either or both of them on, and one of them ('higher-definition pitch-shifting') is a per-organ option, so you could turn it on for organs that your computer can manage easily, and turn it off for very large organs if you found that those organs struggled with it on your computer.


Also, Piotr's Alessandria sample set is itself exceptionally CPU-intensive (since it is very large and has many virtual pipes per real pipe), so if you want a sample set of that size to perform properly, and sound its best (by enabling Hauptwerk v6's high audio quality/realism options) then you would need a very powerful computer indeed. I don't know off-hand whether Piotr's Nancy sample set is quite as large or CPU-intensive as his Alessandria, but it's still very large.

A 2011-vintage 12-core 3.3 GHz Mac Pro is still a very powerful computer even today, but it's 10 years old (which is a long time in computer technology terms), and current similarly-high-spec. computers will out-perform it by a substantial margin. (As far as I know, 2011 Mac Pro CPUs didn't support AVX CPU instruction sets, which make a big difference to performance for Hauptwerk v5+, for example.) Whether it would be enough to handle Piotr's Nancy sample set properly with Hauptwerk v6's highest-quality/realism options enabled, I don't know.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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larason2

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 1:02 pm

I think your Mac pro and current Audio interface should be powerful enough to run Allessandria or Nancy, even with all of Hauptwerk’s VI’s settings maxed out. If you’re not sure, I would try maxing out the settings on one of your other sample sets with a comparable number of stops. Nancy or Allessandria won’t require much more processing power than that.
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mdyde

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 2:57 pm

Hello larason2,

My understanding is that the Alessandria set plays 6 stereo virtual pipes simultaneously per key per stop (3x perspectives, x2 for 'tremmed' plus 'untremmed' together for cross-fading between them), which is double what other 3-perspective sample sets normally use, hence roughly twice as CPU-intensive as previous very large surround sample sets. (I don't know off-hand whether the Nancy sample set adopts the same approach.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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jerrymartin

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 3:07 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello larason2,

My understanding is that the Alessandria set plays 6 stereo virtual pipes simultaneously per key per stop (3x perspectives, x2 for 'tremmed' plus 'untremmed' together for cross-fading between them), which is double what other 3-perspective sample sets normally use, hence roughly twice as CPU-intensive as previous very large surround sample sets. (I don't know off-hand whether the Nancy sample set adopts the same approach.)


Thanks for all you do Martin; Hauptwerk is stunning that it models all of this in real time.

For the record - I believe that Nancy is even more CPU intensive than Alessandria: potentially 4 perspectives (although I only load 3) and an absurdly long decay in the building - with Hauptwerk maximum sound settings and a beefy CPU to support it, the result in my living room is stunning

:D
Jeremiah Martin,
Portsmouth, Ohio
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mdyde

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 3:13 pm

Thanks, Jerry. That's useful to know.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Antoni Scott

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 3:18 pm

To Jeremiah Martin:


For the record - I believe that Nancy is even more CPU intensive than Alessandria: potentially 4 perspectives (although I only load 3) and an absurdly long decay in the building - with Hauptwerk maximum sound settings and a beefy CPU to support it, the result in my living room is stunning

Hi there Jeremiah:
Can you tell me what computer system you have that drives the Nancy sample set to your liking ? I would appreciate any info. It's possible my computer is too old even though it has 12 cores at 3.33Ghz.

yes it is true that Martin Dyde created a stunning software program that has brought many people great joy.

Antoni
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jerrymartin

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 3:29 pm

Hi Antoni,

Mine is the 2018 Mac Mini
3.2GHz Intel Core i7
64GB RAM

I can load Nancy with front and rear channels in 24 bit, compressed; and then I also load the close channels at 16bit compressed and mix that in for some clarity. My sound system is surround (the front/close mix goes to a front stereo pair, and the rear to a rear stereo pair). I'm quite happy with the result.

Regarding the CPU - what is your current max polyphony? On my configuration I have Polyphony set at 6048 (some would say that is low for Nancy with the super long reverb, but I've been happy with the results)

96kHz audio on, but advanced pitch shift is at standard.

Hope this helps give you a benchmark!
Jeremiah Martin,
Portsmouth, Ohio
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CarsonCooman

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostTue Jun 08, 2021 5:58 pm

mdyde wrote:My understanding is that the Alessandria set plays 6 stereo virtual pipes simultaneously per key per stop (3x perspectives, x2 for 'tremmed' plus 'untremmed' together for cross-fading between them), which is double what other 3-perspective sample sets normally use, hence roughly twice as CPU-intensive as previous very large surround sample sets. (I don't know off-hand whether the Nancy sample set adopts the same approach.)


Although Nancy is a larger organ, it is worth noting that it has sampled tremulants on only one of the five divisions. So only on the Positive are notes playing 2X the number of perspectives loaded. One reason Alessandria is so extreme for its size (given Piotr's approach of the tremulant samples always playing so as to crossfade smoothly) is that three of four divisions (all three manuals) have sampled tremulants.
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mdyde

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 3:22 am

Thanks, Carson.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Antoni Scott

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostWed Jun 09, 2021 10:19 am

I downloaded the Free Demo of the Nancy sample set but was disappointed. I wasn't able to edit the sounds or use the "detune" option. With only 11 stops and a lot of background wind noise it is not possible to assess the entire organ. The sound from the free demo was muddy and lacked clarity, completely different from the examples I have listened to from Youtube contributors like McVeigh or Fraser Gartshore , or for that fact the Nancy demo on Grabowski's site. I'm not sure how one can determine what the organ sounds like and at over a $1000 that's about double what comparable sample sets cost. I wonder why the Youtube video's sound so good ?
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Antoni Scott

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Operating System update.

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 1:29 pm

My 2011 Macpro (Mid 2010) has OSX Yosemite Version 10.10.3 installed on it. Apparently it is insuficcient to run Version V or VI. I'm trying to find what is the most recent version of OSX that will work on my computer. Does anyone know ?
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Antoni Scott

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Re: Operating System update.

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 1:38 pm

I bought my computer from IBuildMacs back in 2015 and it had OSX Yosemite 10.10 3. I contacted them and the owner said that my computer will handle up to Mojave 10.14. Will that upgrade be sufficient to handle Version V or VI ?
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micdev

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Re: Operating System update.

PostThu Jun 10, 2021 2:50 pm

Antoni,

I don't understand, I replied to you many times today and you keep asking the same thing... check your emails.
Best regards
François

Virtually sharing my enthusiasm and experience with you
Worldwide technical assistance, consultation and ready to play system.

http://www.HauptwerkConsultant.com

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jerrymartin

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Re: Upgrading to better technology

PostFri Jun 11, 2021 7:48 am

Antoni Scott wrote: I wonder why the Youtube video's sound so good ?
Antoni


Hi Antoni,

I'm very much in love with the Nancy set - but it does take a bit of figuring out.

I just downloaded the demo to make sure everything works there too before I make my suggestions :) as you probably know it's supplied in 8-channels. I loaded the Nancy demo, 24-bit, compressed, all samples, all loops and it takes almost 18GB - lots of polyphony head-room to make it sound good too due to the very long releases.

On the 'settings' screen - the 'default mix' of Close 23, Front 100, Middle 23, and Rear 23 is not a bad starting place.

On that 'settings' screen - to adjust any of those values - with your mouse click on the number and drag up or down. Detuning does indeed work on the demo set, but I recommend not setting this to much higher than 40% (otherwise it sounds like Nancy is having a very bad day!)

I do recommend also turning down the 'noises' - I have key action at 50%, stop action at 70%, and blower at 27%

If you want a clearer sound - increase the master volume of 'close' and drop the master volume of front and rear.

You may also need to increase the trim/volume in hauptwerk (audio, midi, performance control panel) - this is a LOUD sampleset, and enjoys hotter output heading towards your speakers (but beware!)

On my 64GB mac to make the full set fit: I have loaded Front and Rear in 24-bit and Close in 16bit. Honestly I am not entirely sure that 'middle' offers a lot to the mix. - I generally play with detuning set to about 40%, and the balance of Close, Front and Rear at 15, 95 and 60 respectively. The result is pleasing (at least to my ears): https://youtu.be/m00uWK2qvfI

Give your demo a try again and see if any of this helps :)
Jeremiah Martin,
Portsmouth, Ohio
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