Upgrading to better technology

Hello Martin:
It's unfortunate that I can't find anybody local that is willing to do an upgrade.

The most prudent thing for me to do is just purchase a new licence and apply it to my newer 12 core Macpro after I upgrade to the latest OSX that was discussed in previous emails That way I can keep the older 8 core MacPro with Version IV installed as a backup.

Antoni

[mdyde]

Thanks, Antoni.

Congratulations of the relaese of Version VII.
Will Version VII run on OSX 10.14 ? To the best of my knowledge my 2011 12-core MacPro can be upgraded to OSX 10.14 maybe even 10.15.

The info I obtained below might be outdated since Version VII was just released.

Computer platforms
This version of Hauptwerk ( Version V) is supported on Apple Macs running macOS ‘High Sierra’ 10.13, macOS ‘Mojave’ 10.14, macOS
‘Mojave’ 10.15, and on PCs running 64-bit Windows 10 or 64-bit Windows 7.
Antoni Scott

[mdyde]

Thanks, Antoni.

Yes -- the minimum supported platforms are the same as for v5 and v6, i.e. macOS 10.13 or above.

The main reason for me upgrading is to take advantage of the enhanced, or improved, audio, (i.e.no more harmonic distortion and aliasing). All of my sample sets are Version IV era. ( Zwolle Version 2,5, the Caen and the St. Maximin, Metz and Bosch-Schnitger, Esztergom). Will there be any audio improvement in these old sample sets when loaded onto Version VII software or is this benfit only realized with newer sample sets. ? Also, can the convolution reverb be used with these older sample sets ?

I guess the most important question is which platform is better, the PC or the OSX Mac ? In the beginning, the Mac was recomended but I see a large number of Hauptwerk owners now use PC's. Since I will be upgrading to a new computer ( Mac or PC) I thought it would be a good idea to ask this question.

Antoni

[mdyde]

Hello Antoni,

Thanks very much for the interest in v7.

[I've merged your new topic into the existing one, so that relevant background information can be found easily.]

In answer to your questions:

The main reason for me upgrading is to take advantage of the enhanced, or improved, audio, (i.e.no more harmonic distortion and aliasing). All of my sample sets are Version IV era. ( Zwolle Version 2,5, the Caen and the St. Maximin, Metz and Bosch-Schnitger, Esztergom). Will there be any audio improvement in these old sample sets when loaded onto Version VII software or is this benfit only realized with newer sample sets. ?

It will benefit older sample sets equally. That is: you don't need to use newer sample sets in order to benefit from the audio/realism improvements in v7.

Also, can the convolution reverb be used with these older sample sets ?

Yes.

I guess the most important question is which platform is better, the PC or the OSX Mac ? In the beginning, the Mac was recomended but I see a large number of Hauptwerk owners now use PC's. Since I will be upgrading to a new computer ( Mac or PC) I thought it would be a good idea to ask this question.

This is what our "Technical Datasheet: background technical information on computer hardware for Hauptwerk" website document says on the subject:

Hauptwerk is available for both Macs and PCs. Macs usually work and perform very well for ‘pro-audio/MIDI’ (low-latency, real-time, CPU-intensive) applications such as Hauptwerk ‘out of the box’, whereas Windows/PCs might (or might not) require some technical expertise and tweaking in order to achieve and maintain that. If you don’t have much technical computer experience or inclination then we recommend either buying a Mac, or buying a PC from a company that builds, maintains and supports them specifically for Hauptwerk (or for general ‘pro-audio/MIDI’) purposes. In a PC the ability to achieve reliable (glitch-free) real-time, low-latency audio, high polyphony, and reliable MIDI performance, depends heavily on the specific combination of hardware components and drivers within the PC (and especially the audio/MIDI interface hardware/drivers), whereas macOS has high-performance professional-grade audio and MIDI drivers built in, so there's much less dependence on hardware or driver quality on macOS. Also Macs, including macOS, are designed and tested specifically for those purposes as complete units by their manufacturer, whereas generic off-the-shelf PCs usually aren’t. On PCs the hardware, operating system and drivers are usually manufactured by different companies. However, PC hardware is often cheaper and there is more choice, and it may be more upgradeable.

In your case, given that you've had difficulty finding people locally to set up things for you on your Mac there might also be something to be said for buying a PC from a company who builds and tests them specifically for Hauptwerk, and who can offer subsequent remote support to you for it if/when you need it.

The main reason for me upgrading is to take advantage of the enhanced, or improved, audio, (i.e.no more harmonic distortion and aliasing). All of my sample sets are Version IV era. ( Zwolle Version 2,5, the Caen and the St. Maximin, Metz and Bosch-Schnitger, Esztergom). Will there be any audio improvement in these old sample sets when loaded onto Version VII software or is this benfit only realized with newer sample sets. ? Also, can the convolution reverb be used with these older sample sets ?

I guess the most important question is which platform is better, the PC or the OSX Mac ? In the beginning, the Mac was recomended but I see a large number of Hauptwerk owners now use PC's. Since I will be upgrading to a new computer ( Mac or PC) I thought it would be a good idea to ask this question.

Antoni

Yes and yes to audio quality improvement and convolution for older samplesets. But you'll have to upgrade Caen and other HW 4 samplesets that used the old dongle license or are encrypted to HW 5+ versions anyway. Caen 2.66 is an improved version. Same for the new version of St. Maximin.

I have the impression that you'd dislike all the audio glitch-prevention tuning steps we have to do for Windows PCs. It took me a day and a half of performance tuning and testing on my newest PC to make Hauptwerk work well. That might lead you to prefer a Mac, which is more turn-key for audio.

Or what Martin said. We were typing at the same time.

Mnailor:
I have the impression that you'd dislike all the audio glitch-prevention tuning steps we have to do for Windows PCs. It took me a day and a half of performance tuning and testing on my newest PC to make Hauptwerk work well. That might lead you to prefer a Mac, which is more turn-key for audio.

Or what Martin said. We were typing at the same time.

Two different suggestions. Both correct.
To Mnailor: Clearly your expertise level is higher than most, but that being said, I'm not sure who would "like" to go through audio glitch prevention steps. An expert taking a day and a half of performance tuning and testing ...Hmmmm. OK.
For sure Mac is an audio glitch free unit right out of the box.
Martin Dyde is correct suggesting a PC. I'm guessing that all of the tuning and testing is done so it is glitch free before selling as Hauptwerk-ready.

I know of no-one that sells Hauptwerk-ready Mac's. only PC's. Organtechnology and Francois Ratte both offer Hauptwerk-ready PC's, not Macs .

I hadn't even considered buying a Hauptwerk-ready PC. It's really a good idea for somebody who doesn't enjoy performance tuning and testing. I enjoyed those activities a lot more as a software developer and sysadmin on Linux (and VAX/VMS and SunOS way back in the last century).

Windows tuning is something I suffer through because Hauptwerk runs there, and new Macs never seem to have the right CPU power or memory for the money available at just the time when I'm shopping for a new machine. I just bought a desktop with an Intel i9-12900K, which Apple has nothing to match right now, and a laptop with an AMD 5700U, and Apple doesn't have a touchscreen laptop or anything in my price range. Maybe next time.

To Mnailor:
I hadn't even considered buying a Hauptwerk-ready PC. It's really a good idea for somebody who doesn't enjoy performance tuning and testing. I enjoyed those activities a lot more as a software developer and sysadmin on Linux (and VAX/VMS and SunOS way back in the last century).

Windows tuning is something I suffer through because Hauptwerk runs there, and new Macs never seem to have the right CPU power or memory for the money available at just the time when I'm shopping for a new machine. I just bought a desktop with an Intel i9-12900K, which Apple has nothing to match right now,



I envy your skillset. Thankyou for your continued help, experience and expertise. Your interest is perfectly inline with Hauptwerk. That being said, you are quite correct in that Mac prices are always higher than PC equivalents. You state that "Macs never seem to have the right CPU power or memory for the money available at the time when shopping". Thats been my experience. More impressive is your statement that you have an Intel i9-12900K that Apple can't match. That intrigues me. So I have a 2011 MacPro with 12 cores (3.33GHZ) and 96 GB RAM. Is you Intel machine more powerful than that ?
So if I were to get a PC, what processor would you recommend to run any sample set available including the Nancy without latency problems or dropouts? Also, how many GB of memory would you recommend ? Possibly some "future-proofing" to have some memory in reserve for those even bigger sample sets in the future.
Since we all own Hauptwerk for the same reason ( unprecedented realism) upgrading to V,VI and now VII seems like a no-brainer. I don't think I'll bother with a touch screen this time unless they are improved since 2012. Mine is hit or miss. I set eveything up via presets.
Hopefully, Francois Ratte can put together a unit that will handle everything.
Antoni

I should have been clear that I was shopping for a desktop/tower machine -- both Apple and Dell probably have more powerful Xeon or Threadripper servers with price tags way beyond my means. Some of those CPUs alone cost more than my whole new machine!

I'd suggest the following ranges of PC hardware to play the full Nancy sampleset without leaving anything out. There will be other PC combinations that could do it, but I'll keep it straightforward. Assume the highest Hauptwerk 7 audio quality settings, 96k sample rate, and 1024 or 512 buffer size.

Memory: At least 96 GB, preferably 128 GB
Processor: At least an AMD Ryzen 9 or Intel Core i7-12xxx or i9-12xxx generation 12
Disk: At least 2 TB of internal SSD and 2 - 4 TB of external or internal SSD for backups, install files, etc.

For processors, you're looking for a desktop CPU rated over 30,000 CPUMark and over 2,500 ThreadMark on this list:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/CPU_mega_page.html

You can select "desktop" in the right hand column and sort by clicking the CPUMark column arrows to see if a proposed CPU is in the range Nancy works well in (over 30,000).

Even with the 40,000 or so CPU Marks I bought, I have to set the polyphony limit carefully for full Nancy at 96k. It's a lot of long releases. Outside of polyphony testing, I actually truncate the Close, Front, and Middle releases to about 3 seconds, leaving Rear at full length, because it seems too wet to me otherwise. A personal preference only. That saves CPU time and allows for a higher polyphony limit in practice.

I don't have all the answers, so your Hauptwerk PC builder might have better ideas for you. But you can at least sanity-check the proposal against the ranges above.

I bought from Dell because I understand what I'm getting from them. Mine is an XPS 8950 with liquid cooling, i9-12900K 16 core processor, 128 GB memory, and 2 TB SSD disk. I already had two 2 TB external SSD drives. Sale price was just under $4000. You'd expect to pay more for build and setup/tuning services that I did myself, of course.

Edit: Yes, any Xeon dual CPU 12 core model Mac Pro built in 2010 - 2012 was very underpowered compared to today's Intel Core i7 or i9 gen 11 or 12, AMD Ryzen 9 or Threadripper, and Apple M1 processors.

Edit 2: I should say that Nancy with only 2 of the 4 perspectives (mic positions) can be very enjoyable and massive-sounding. I've been using it that way on a 17,000 CPU Mark PC with 64 GB until now, and it's been great. Wanting to run at the new higher quality Hauptwerk 7 audio options is what had me looking for a bigger machine.

Edit 3: There's a current Mac Pro (28 core Xeon) with about the same performance as my new PC. At about 4 times the price. Ouch.

Mnailor:
Clearly you are way ahead in knowledge, expertise and experience. And very helpful, too, definitely an asset to the Hauptwerk community. Its great that you are a Hauptwerk/organist enthusiast, too.
Is there anyway that I can contact you privately ? I need some clear cut recommendations. My email address is Ascott4277@gmail.com.
Antoni

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