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E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

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B. Milan

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E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

PostSun Jan 25, 2004 7:58 pm

I would like to let everyone know that our next organ project involves recordings of the E.M. Skinner organ located at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church in Chicago, Illinois, USA. You may read a bit about the organ here:

http://www.mt-carmel.org/organs.htm

It has 54 ranks and is one of the last unaltered E.M. Skinner organs in existence! It will be available with Hauptwerk version 2 when it comes out.

In the mean time we've been working on our newest project, the Hamburg Steinway piano from the Krannert Center for the Performing Arts in Champaign, Illinois. There are some preliminary demos on the site now if you are interested in hearing it. Feel free to have a listen at www.milandigitalaudio.com/steinwaydemos.htm Many thanks!
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Stephen Phillips

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PostSat Feb 07, 2004 1:46 am

Hi Brett,
I have listened to 'your' Steinway demo - very good piano sound - is this a sample set that we are hearing from some sort of MIDI sequence? At my orchestra studio we have a less-than-perfectly maintained Hamburg Steinway D, I play it for many hours each month, just for pleasure. Perhaps some of the forum members are not aware of the interesting history between Steinway (Steinweg) and Grotrian in Europe? I'll explain more if anyone is interested. Is the Steinway intended for Hauptwerk or some other platform? I was wondering abut velocity sensitivity, etc.
Yours,
Stephen Phillips
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mdyde

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PostSat Feb 07, 2004 5:30 am

Hauptwerk version 2 will allow velocity sensitivity, sample layering, and many of the other features traditionally found in samplers. However, Brett's Steinway comprises about 6 GB of sample data, if I recall correctly, so we decided it wasn't worth making a version of it for Hauptwerk - it would be better suited to disk-streaming samplers, which are essentially designed for larger samples but lower polyphony, and thus more appropriate for pianos.

Martin.
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B. Milan

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PostSat Feb 07, 2004 6:25 pm

Thanks Martin. I was going to reply, but you beat me to it! Actually, when the entire piano set is finished (all three mic positions pedal up and down samples) it will be an estimated 18-20 gigs!!! So yes, it would be a bit unrealistic to have that much RAM. However, one set of pedal up samples for example is around 3.4 gigs with all the release samples as well. So, perhaps when PC's are handling this much RAM, one could easily load just one set of the piano samples. I'll keep this in mind sometime after the release of HW2. There will be individual volumes available for this piano library, so one could just purchase one volume if they wished to use it with HW should I manage to get it in this format (which I hope I can by the way!)

Stephen, the piano demos were played through Sonar 2.0 with Kontakt loaded as a DXi. They were midi files rendered by other musicians from various websites. Hope this answers your question.
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Opinions wanted for smaller Skinner .organ files

PostMon Mar 01, 2004 4:54 pm

As we venture to create the largest sampled organ yet, I am well aware that this entire organ of 50 stops plus extras will not fit on current PC's RAM. Please let me know what combinations of stops you would like to see for smaller .organ files. Perhaps try to give some ranges up to around 20-25 stops or so. As work progresses on the Skinner organ, I will see which combinations seem most appropriate/popular and will include these along with the sample set. This way users will not have to worry about creating their own files if they don't want, especially with the new format of Hauptwerk 2.

You may find the stop list at www.milandigitalaudio.com/skinner.htm along with some pictures.

Although the organ is still maintained with its original Skinner voicing and specifications, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel has just recently added a new Trumpet en Chamade! This unique stop will be included with the sample set! Please keep this stop in mind while creating your stop lists. Ok everyone, time to get creative!!! Thanks!
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mdyde

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PostTue Mar 02, 2004 7:05 am

Just to clarify - with genuine 64-bit processors (e.g. the AMD FX-51) and a 64-bit operating system, there is no practical limit on memory, so you will be able to use sample sets that are much larger than 2 GB if you have the right computer equipment. Hauptwerk version 2 will be needed, and 64-bit Windows XP is not yet released, but both should hopefully be available by the summer. See the FAQ on 64-bit processors for more information:

http://www.hauptwerk.co.uk/faq.html

Martin.
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Skinner Organ

PostTue Mar 02, 2004 7:16 am

Brett
What a dilemma? This is like a chocoholic being let loose in a chocolate factory and told you can only have 3 samples!
The ranks on the Great and the Pedal are perhaps the easiest to choose but those on the Swell and Choir include some unique Skinner inventions.
Pedal: OD16, B16, O8, Cello8, Tromb16 and of course the Unter32.
Great: Easiest just to leave out the DD16, Tromb8, Clar4, Chimes. I'd like to keep the Clarion4 but have to prune somewhere...
I'd have to combine Swell and Choir to create a two manual organ - well at least for my use any rate - so that's where the biggest problem lies.
You would want to keep a balanced 8,4,2 diapason sound, but also a nice quieter 8,4,2 flute combo then the Skinner specials must be included.
You can't leave out the Celesta, Triangular Flute, Waldhorn, Orchestral Oboe, Gamba Celeste.
So Swell: D8, FD8,FC8, S8, VC8, F(Triang)4, Fl2, MxV, Wald16, Celesta.
Choir: CF8, GC8, Gambette4, N2 2/3, Orch Ob8, TM8
I also had to drop the clever percussion sounds as they are not often used.
BUT this still adds up to 31 ranks. It would suit me but what to delete to get down to 25? Perhaps cut out Swell FD8, Sal8, TM8, Pedal Cello8, Great Flute4.
It would feel abit like buying half an organ though. The real thing would not be appreciated with all the wonderful combinations possible. It's also hard making choices without hearing the actual sounds and their effect in combinations.
Great organ to sample though.
Cheers
Brenton
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Re: Skinner Organ

PostTue Mar 02, 2004 8:26 am

BrentonB wrote:Brett
What a dilemma? This is like a chocoholic being let loose in a chocolate factory and told you can only have 3 samples!
The ranks on the Great and the Pedal are perhaps the easiest to choose but those on the Swell and Choir include some unique Skinner inventions.
Pedal: OD16, B16, O8, Cello8, Tromb16 and of course the Unter32.
Great: Easiest just to leave out the DD16, Tromb8, Clar4, Chimes. I'd like to keep the Clarion4 but have to prune somewhere...
I'd have to combine Swell and Choir to create a two manual organ - well at least for my use any rate - so that's where the biggest problem lies.
You would want to keep a balanced 8,4,2 diapason sound, but also a nice quieter 8,4,2 flute combo then the Skinner specials must be included.
You can't leave out the Celesta, Triangular Flute, Waldhorn, Orchestral Oboe, Gamba Celeste.
So Swell: D8, FD8,FC8, S8, VC8, F(Triang)4, Fl2, MxV, Wald16, Celesta.
Choir: CF8, GC8, Gambette4, N2 2/3, Orch Ob8, TM8
I also had to drop the clever percussion sounds as they are not often used.
BUT this still adds up to 31 ranks. It would suit me but what to delete to get down to 25? Perhaps cut out Swell FD8, Sal8, TM8, Pedal Cello8, Great Flute4.
It would feel abit like buying half an organ though. The real thing would not be appreciated with all the wonderful combinations possible. It's also hard making choices without hearing the actual sounds and their effect in combinations.
Great organ to sample though.
Cheers
Brenton


...maybe Martin can make an extended loading function available where you can chose which registers to load into memory? Like you get offered all available stops and only the chosen ones are loaded, the others maybe with a zero-length-wave-file to keep the inner-organ structure intact... Stuff to think about,

Christian.
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B. Milan

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PostTue Mar 02, 2004 9:55 am

Thanks for your responses thus far! I'm certainly aware of the new 64 bit version coming up, but I'm not sure that everyone is going to upgrade to a whole new system right away. To clarify a bit more, I will of course create a complete stop list .organ file as well. All sample files of all stops will be included with each sample set. It would be great if everyone is able to upgrade to the new 64 bit hardware and software, but I'm also thinking about those that cannot. I'm taking notes on the feedback, so let's keep 'em coming! Thanks!
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E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

PostTue Mar 02, 2004 10:02 am

WITHDRAWN

James Pressler
Last edited by jocr on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostTue Mar 02, 2004 11:51 am

My PC will not go beyond 1.5 GB, and I'm limited to two manuals. Here's my bare-bones subset (33 stops):

GREAT
First Diapason 8'
Second Diapason 8'
Harmonic Flute 8'
Octave 4'
Flute 4'
Twelfth 2 2/3'
Fifteenth 2'
Harmonics III
Trumpet en Chamade
Tromba 8'
(Lose the Double Diapason 16', Clarion 4', Great-Choir Chimes)

SWELL (taken from the original Swell and Choir Divisions; this one hurts!)
Diapason 8'
Rohrflute 8'
Salicional 8'
Voix Celeste 8'
Octave 4'
Flautino 2'
Mixture V
Waldhorn 16'
Trumpet 8'
Clarion 4'
Oboe d'Amore 8'
Gamba 8'
Flute 4'
Nazard 2 2/3'
Tuba Mirabalis 8'
Tremolo
(Lose the Flauto Dolce 8', Flute Celeste 8', Flute (triangular) 4', Gamba Celeste 8', Clarinet 8', Orchestral Oboe 8', Celesta (x2), Gambette 4', Dulciana 8',French Horn 8' (ouch!), Harp, Zimbelstern, Gamba 16', Concert Flute 8')

PEDAL
Open Diapason 16'
Contra Bass 16'
Bourdon 16'
Octave 8'
Super Octave 4'
Trombone 16'
Tromba 8'
Untersatz 32'
Waldhorn 16' (Swell)
(Lose the Gedeckt 8', Cello 8', borrowed Gamba 16', borrowed Diapason 16'; add the borrowed Waldhorn) :shock:
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Untersatz 32'

PostMon Mar 08, 2004 11:38 am

Hearing today for the first time a 32' stop here (from a feature on the Disney organ at http://www.scpr.org/), I must now say that I personally can live without one.

-Alvin
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E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

PostMon Mar 08, 2004 12:13 pm

I think the E.M. Skinner 32' is quite a different beast from the Disney Hall instrument's, and the low bandwidth doesn't allow anything but the general rattle and a few upper harmonics to seep through, but thanks for the links. Manuel Rosales's description of scroll tuning (and the revelation that seeing Fantasia at age 13 made him become an organ builder), consultant Michael Barone's comment that the long trackers are creating too much extraneous noise (now he tells us!)--these are just about priceless.

James Pressler
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Re: E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

PostMon Mar 08, 2004 12:48 pm

jocr wrote:I think the E.M. Skinner 32' is quite a different beast from the Disney Hall instrument's, and the low bandwidth doesn't allow anything but the general rattle and a few upper harmonics to seep through, but thanks for the links. Manuel Rosales's description of scroll tuning (and the revelation that seeing Fantasia at age 13 made him become an organ builder), consultant Michael Barone's comment that the long trackers are creating too much extraneous noise (now he tells us!)--these are just about priceless.

James Pressler


I think you are right: RealAudio compressed sound does not tell much about the original sound in this specific case. But as the organ builder (or whoever) said in the clip: A 32' stop is not for being played solo. It's for the complete ensemble to add. If you have a 16' principal basis Pedal one might always want a 32' stop when playing tutti. A 32' reed is a completly different thing, too - over here in Germany many Organs have the following stops in the pedal:
8' Prinzipal
16' Subbaß
16' Fagott
(among higher stops of course).
If you had in a large church a 16' Prinzipal with a 32' Subbaß one would want to have a 32' reed stop. Mostly one doesn't get one, because they are expensive, but maybe - some day - some point? And that's where Hauptwerk kicks in: We can have on in our living room. So if I was to play some awesome tutti piece I would like to have a 32' stop included. Definitly.

Christian.

P.S.: Has someone considered using choir stops instead of individual pipes? Like the "8'-4'-2'-1'"-Prinzipal stop that has four pipes but one wave file? Would save memory a lot...

Christian.
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Re: E.M. Skinner Organ Sample Set

PostMon Mar 08, 2004 2:35 pm

cdatzko wrote:P.S.: Has someone considered using choir stops instead of individual pipes? Like the "8'-4'-2'-1'"-Prinzipal stop that has four pipes but one wave file? Would save memory a lot...
Christian.


I think this would be a great way to conserve memory, but would severely limit the variety of sounds available. Basing a plenum on either a flute or a principal, the various partial cornets, adding flues to reeds to strengthen them, so many interesting and useful registrations which have been the joy of Hauptwerk would no longer be available. Also, the sampler would need to prerecord and loop these combinations in order to preserve their integrity.

James Pressler
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