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Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

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1961TC4ME

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Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostWed May 19, 2021 3:58 pm

Hello all,

I'm wondering if maybe someone here could go over the basic differences of what puts an instrument into the Romantic category, the Modern category, and the Symphonic category. No need to go into great detail, I'm just more curious what it is that mainly puts each into it's given category.

My thinking is I'm probably more after an instrument in the Romantic category, so I've been looking over instruments again and a few of the composite sets on Augustine's site have caught my attention to try out, so I have downloaded his Sonus Paradisi Great Romantic composite set to try for starters. What I'm looking for is an instrument that would sound and be along the lines of the following instrument in the link below. I'm curious to hear from anyone that can look over the stop list and tell me which category they think this instrument would mostly fall into. I'm going to say this one is more Romantic than Symphonic, and certainly seems to not be Modern, but I could be wrong. From what I've read this particular Wicks instrument has some Willis influence.

https://www.pipeorganlist.com/Organ_Web ... ks_sp.html

And here's a link to a good video of the actual instrument and what it sounds like, the great Chris Stroh at the console. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQsF1Lm-KkA

Would love a sample set of this instrument! Hint, hint to someone I know here in the area that's in the sample set business! :mrgreen:

Am I on the right track with Augstine's Sonus Paradisi Great Romantic composite set I've chosen to try? Sure, I know I'm not going to get those trumpets, but hey that part is fine.

Here's a link to Agustine's composite set.

https://hauptwerk-augustine.info/SP_Romantic.php

Marc
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RaymondList

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostWed May 19, 2021 5:17 pm

I'd be first in line to buy that sample set! Sign me up!
Ray
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larason2

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostWed May 19, 2021 8:43 pm

I don’t think there is a definitive answer to the question of what defines Romantic, Symphonic, or Modern, but I will try and argue for what I think the definition should be!

I think that a romantic organ should be defined as an instrument built during the romantic period. During that time, organs tended to be built to try and provide more sensitivity and expressiveness, and that this typifies romanticism in music.

I think a symphonic organ is one that includes an ensemble of stops that tries to include all the major tone colours of the orchestra, or symphony. This ideal developed during the Romantic period, and many romantic instruments, particularly later in the romantic could be said to also be symphonic. I would argue that any instrument that has every major type of pipe voice on every division could be called “symphonic.”

The word “Modern” is the least useful descriptor of the three, I would argue! Modern literally means of the latest mode, or fashion, and in every age, what was lately being built could have been called modern! However, for pipe organs it is usually used to refer to an instrument that tries to incorporate Baroque and Romantic ideals in the same instrument. So I would argue that any instrument that has been built lately could be called “modern”, but that you could also say that any recent instrument that includes baroque and romantic stops together could also be called “modern”.

I’m sure others may have different opinions!
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Purator

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostThu May 20, 2021 9:00 am

Well, we are already living in a postmodern world, so let's talk about modern :D

I would categorise an organ as "Modern" if it is built in a contemporary style to allow playing contemporary music. For example, take a look at the organ of St. Peter in Cologne: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter_(K%C3%B6ln)#Hauptorgel
It has some very unusual stops, like an 8/11', or a Physharmonica which lines up with new ideas in creating music.

(On a side note, for me, most of "modern" or "contemporary" is not "music", but merely annoying noise.)
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robsig

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostThu May 20, 2021 10:19 am

I'm not an expert in the Romantic organ, but here are my thoughts on the subject.

The terms Romantic and Symphonic both refer to the 19th century organ which followed the baroque/classical era. Following the French revolution and the precipitous decline of the Catholic church, and the development of the symphony orchestra, secular music came to be more and more prominent in organ repertoire. Organ concerts become a surprise popular fashion in France especially at the World's Fairs of the period. The organs still however varied from country to country. It is largely due to the innovations of Cavaillé-Coll (and others, including Barker) that an entirely new type of organ became the fashion. The new type of organ featured many 8' stops used together to form a warm and voluminous sound, replacing the clearer classical sounds formed from higher pitches. At the same time organs were being produced in Germany and Holland which were also in the Romantic fashion, influenced by Cavaillé-Coll (Sauer, Walcker).

In the twentieth century and especially since the rediscovery of the classical organ sound from the 1940's on, the hybrid organ, what we call the modern organ, allowed for the playing of the romantic, contemporary and the older repertoires.

When you are choosing an organ for 19th century repertoire (and into the 20th century) you will want to define what music you want to play. For the French symphonic repertoire the Cavaillé-Coll organ is the path to pursue. If you want to play more of the German and Belgian-Dutch repertoire from that period (Lemmens, Reger, Liszt, Rheinberger) a Dutch or German (or even American) organ might appeal more to you. There are also large English organs from the 19th century. If you play more twentieth century music requiring mixtures and brighter sounds a more recent organ would be appropriate.

It really depends what music you want to play! In any case a large organ with lots of stops and a big acoustic is typical of the period.
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scottherbert

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostThu May 20, 2021 10:47 am

I seem to prefer the French Romantic (Cavaille-Coll) model, but I have found that the Rotterdam Hoofdorgel from SP to be my main 'go to'. I really enjoy the French way of distributing voices on the divisions, like the reeds on the Swell. Good selection of flute tone colors and several celestes to choose from. The Rotterdam has bolder Principals and brighter mixtures that I like, so it is at home playing Boroque as wel as Romantic pieces.

There are several non-French organs that have similar stoplists, like the German Billerbeck organ from SP. Pipeloops has the Bonn-Buell, and Piotr Grabowski has several like the Friesach or Allesandria.. Augustine has some very good organs, but the Romantic Composite is one of his first attempts, although free it is a little disappointing. SP Doesburg is also good for a wide selection of tonal color and dynamics. His Savaria is good, he has made great strides in improving his sample sets.

Interstingly, the SP set Forcalquier is listed as 'modern', but has many features of a boroque style organ. It is quite nice though IMHO.

It all depends on your budget. The Friesach is free, so it goes up from there. I have no experience with the other producers, although there are some interesting organs at Inspired Acoustics.
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Romantic, Symphonic or Modern?

PostThu May 20, 2021 1:07 pm

Thanks all for the very thoughtful replies and explanations! I installed Augustine's 'Great Romantic' last night and although it's pretty good, yes it does lack in a few areas and is not quite what I have in mind for overall sound. The sound itself is decent, but probably not quite up to par with some of the sets we've been spoiled with as of late. As mentioned, it is one of his earlier attempts, but for a free set it's a great instrument. I take into consideration what used to be available years ago, and we paid for them too, so what Augustine has done is very generous to say the least and I thank him for that.

Billerbeck was brought up and I have been looking / listening closely to it. I do have the demo installed and have been using it. It's quite spacious but makes many beautiful sounds! Speaking of sound, it's probably my first choice and the one that likely sounds as close as I'm going to get to that of the Wicks instrument I provided the video of. They do sound surprisingly similar. The only issue that has stopped me so far is if I can I use it and do it justice with a mere 32 GB of memory, as depending on how you load it, it requires unobtanium amounts of memory! :lol: It does have numerous loading options and I suppose I could probably squeeze one of the front signals along with the rear into 32 GB.

Marc

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