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Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

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Neumie

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Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostMon Aug 09, 2021 5:27 pm

I'm sure this had to have been discussed before. Please someone provide a link if this has been discussed at length elsewhere.

I'm coming back to the organ after a few years of not playing. I downloaded Hauptwerk some time ago, but wandered off just as I got it installed. I hope to correct that now.

It's obvious why organists use touch-screens to control Hauptwerk. I imagine most users have more than one organ sample set and they enjoy the variety. Each sample set has it's own custom screen of stops.

So why do some people spend mega bucks to build an organ console with mechanical MIDI stops to control Hauptwerk? Doesn't this suggest that, unless they are also using touch-screens in addition to mechanical stops, they are committing to that one organ sample set that goes with their physical stops essentially permanently? If another sample set, however great it might sound, has a different number of stops, it won't match up with their mechanical stops.

Are mechanical stops on a Hauptwerk controller organ for hardcore organists who have spent years already going through different Hauptwerk sample sets - and thus are now prepared to commit to one instrument for life? It seems to me as a beginner, the LAST thing I would want to do is commit myself to one instrument, regardless of how enthusiastic I am about it. Something better will inevitably come along - or at the very least, I would profit from trying out different virtual organs.

Can anyone explain the thinking that causes people to spend a lot of dough on mechanical stops that tie them down to one instrument? It seems mechanical stops also would cause an organist to avoid trying out all the different organ sets available, no?

Again, I get that you can have tabs/pull-stops AND a touch screen. I'm talking about some of the big dollar Hauptwerk consoles I've seen that are pretty much dedicated to the built in mechanical stops.
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larason2

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostMon Aug 09, 2021 9:40 pm

On my organ, I have a variety of physical stops, that more or less match most sample sets. When I load a new sample set, I already have most of the stops on each division. I assign the stops to where that more or less match on the physical stops. Sometimes I select a stop that doesn’t exist, but in Hauptwerk, the stop sounds provide feedback, so I can tell if a stop isn’t available when I select it. It’s not perfect, but I don’t like registering on a tablet. Others have dynamic stop labels, or plastic stop strips they can change out. This works for me for now.

These are the stops I have:

Pedal
-Resultant 32
-Diapason 16
-Violone 16
-Bourdon 16
-Octave 8
-Viola 8
-Gedackt Flote 8
-Choral Bass 4
-Flute Ouverte 4
-Mixtur II
-Bombarde 16
-Bassoon 16
-Trompette 8
-Clarion 4

Swell
-Bourdon 16
-Principal 8
-Salizional 8
-Flute 8
-Gedeckt 8
-Celeste 8
-Spitz Principal 4
-Flute 4
-Nasard 2 2/3
-Blockflote 2
-Terz 1 3/5
-Larigot 1 1/3
-Mixture III
-Contra Fagotto 16
-Trompette 8
-Oboe 8
-Clarinet 8
-Clarion 4
-Tremulant

Great
-Principal 16
-Bourdon 16
-Principal 8
-Gamba 8
-Hohl Flute 8
-Gedeckt 8
-Octav 4
-Spitzflote 4
-Quint 2 2/3
-Principal 2
-Waldflote 2
-Cornet V
-Mixture IV
-Bassoon 16
-Trumpet 8
-Horn 8
-Clarion 4
-Tremulant
-Great to Pedal
-Swell to Pedal
-Swell to Great
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engrssc

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 4:42 am

I've had an idea. for some time but really haven't pursued it to any extent. Basically with multiple lighted drawknobs which more or less cover a large percent of classical organ sample sets. The idea being when an organ (sample set) was chosen, the applicable drawknobs would light up dimly (half normal brightness), others not available (for this particular organ) would remain dark (off - unlit). When a stop were drawn, the drawknob would light, full brightness. The same "feature" could apply to lighted tabs as well. So a predetermined stop set per organ would determine which drawknobs would light up dimly, etc. Could something like a Arduino (decoder) or Teensy be used for this?

Rgds,
Ed
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larason2

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 7:55 am

Thanks for your reply Ed. I’ve thought of a similar idea. You could definitely do this with an arduino. Another thought is to put a strip of LED’s above the stops, and have them light up if a stop is available. That’s a little easier to program, and you know if a stop is on or off by whether the stop tab is up or down. I’ll probably get around to doing this someday, but I have a lot of other projects on the go!
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engrssc

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 9:16 am

larason2 wrote: Another thought is to put a strip of LED’s above the stops, and have them light up if a stop is available. That’s a little easier to program

Using the idea of a stop showing that it is available by being lit dimly would not require any physical alterations.

Not sure exactly what you mean by the method of adding lights would be easier to program assuming you are thinking of using an Arduino. Mega 2560.

Further, couldn't a combination action sketch be used to control the (dim) lights, using either thumb pistons or a LaunchPad to select both a sample set (organ) as well the respective pattern of available stops (for that particular organ) to be (per my suggestion) lit dimly.? In effect this program (organ selector) would operate in addition to the "normal" c/a hense the thought of using a separate L/P.

A c/a (program) already has the ability to select and save a pattern of stops right? 8) Something like a lower (maybe 3 VDC) power source could be used fir the dim l (LED) lights.

Rgds,
Ed
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ldeutsch

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 10:49 am

OK, I'll chime in on this thread too...

I have a secondary career as a musician and I sometimes give organ concerts. One of the things I like about Hauptwerk is that I can prepare for a concert by practicing on a sample set that provides a similar experience as the pipe organ to be used in the concert. I believe this makes me better prepared for the concert.

The user interface of the organ is an integral part of the performance too - just like the ranks of pipes and the building acoustics. Hauptwerk lets you create an approximation of the ranks of a specific pipe organ, and also approximate the acoustics. However, it does little to approximate the user interface - which is not just the keyboards but also the stops, couplers, and combination action.

This is one reason I prefer to have mechanical stops (and couplers, and combination pistons) on my console. When I began using Hauptwerk, I spent a little time using a touch screen but quickly migrated to using the physical controls on my console - at least for concert organs! I quickly discovered this would not work for theater organs - which is why I built a dedicated theater organ console too. The latter really paid off when performing on theater pipe organs because I was already used to the stop layout - which is VERY different.

As long as your mechanical console is large enough, the fact that the stops do not match a Hauptwerk sample set's is not a major problem. It is easy to leave some mechanical stops non-functioning and assign other stops to a "close" mechanical one. As for couplers, you can fill out most missing couplers on your physical console my using Hauptwerk's "master" controls.

If you are a capable software coder, it is also not that difficult to use the CODM to fill out missing stops and couplers by using borrowing or unification.

Some Hauptwerk users might balk at some of these comments - but I am NOT trying recreate specific organs in my home. Rather, I want a set of organs that allow me to explore the repertoire and provide good practice instruments - and perhaps do a little recording.

Les
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Neumie

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 11:18 am

Thank you for the articulate and knowledgeable replies.

So I'm learning here that some advanced HW users do in fact assign sample set stops to mechanical tabs/drawbars, resulting in some working and some dormant for each sample set. I never knew that. I love learning new stuff.

larason2, your reply gave me some new search terms to look up. Last night I learned about the Viscount Hymmersive, which is basically a HW console with miniature postage stamp sized OLED readouts above each stop's rocker switch, like the electronic price tags I see at some stores. So each HW sample set an organist could pull up would reprogram the OLEDs with the name of each stop and dormant switches would simply have the readout blank.

This is probably old news to you guys, but I enjoyed learning about this. Thanks again for the replies.


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engrssc

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 11:46 am

Neumie wrote:Last night I learned about the Viscount Hymmersive, which is basically a HW console with miniature postage stamp sized OLED readouts above each stop's rocker switch, like the electronic price tags I see at some stores. So each HW sample set an organist could pull up would reprogram the OLEDs with the name of each stop and dormant switches would simply have the readout blank.


Great idea, albeit very costly. Having deep pockets or the ability's to re-mortgage your place is useful. (Just kidding - sort of) :roll:
https://youtu.be/7vGIMomsehs

https://youtu.be/ENOmvTRibis

https://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19817&p=148628&hilit=ken+spencer#p148628
Stop Labelling Software (known as "kasLABSv1.4x"

Rgds,
Ed
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larason2

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 11:49 am

It depends how you go about it. The arduino outputs are either high or low, so you can’t use the same pin to have a bright and a dim output of the same LED directly wired with a resistor. You could use a separate pin for each LED, however. My unit has 54 stops, so that’s only enough for one pin per stop. You can use external devices to give you more pins, but I prefer to get away from that, because you have to learn a new set of programming commands for each device. Still, I could wire my whole organ to have dim and bright lights with only two arduino megas. It would have Midi in, so the lights set automatically when a particular organ is loaded. You would have to program the arduino to set the correct lights for each set, but that wouldn’t be too hard, just time consuming.
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engrssc

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 11:57 am

larason2 wrote:The Arduino outputs are either high or low, so you can’t use the same pin to have a bright and a dim output of the same LED directly wired with a resistor.


Thinking of using diodes to isolate the two (high/low) voltage sources? The low (dim) from the Arduino via it's diode isolated outputs and the high mode via the regular (diode isolated) c/a output. Each set of diode's anodes connected together to drive the individual LED. Would use a 5 VDC supply with a 3 VDC regulator to supply the dim/low power source.

And using the high output KEYESTUDIO Mega Advanced 2560 R3 Board (high output because conceivably all 68 outputs could be used) to drive LED's dim light mode. Just guessing but I think each LED would draw something like 5ma in the the low/dim mode. Could be wrong about that as I haven't had a chance to try it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q8F414X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

along with John Coenraad's Arduino Decoder program/sketch:

https://sites.google.com/site/casavantopus400/arduino-decoder

which gives 68 Arduino outputs.
What think you?

Rgds,
Ed
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Neumie

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 1:06 pm

This may not add anything to the conversation, but this is the HW console that first caused me to ask the question.

The pipes are decorative and the console, as far as I know, doesn't generate any other sound. It's all HW.

It's hard to imagine having this many stops and having some of them be dormant because the user has a different sample set pulled up - ie, a set other than what the console what "intended" for. It would just be too hard to keep track of which stops are working and which aren't. (But I'm still a beginner organist, so I don't really know about these things. Maybe advanced guys can easily keep straight which stops are usable and which ones aren't.)

So I have to assume this person settled in on a sample set at some point and is committed for life to that one organ. I think this is owned by an organist in Germany, so maybe he only uses the sample set at home that's taken from a real-world favorite organ of his.

On top of everything else, this console is already a bunch of years old, built when HW was still new. It would seem to me there was no concern toward whether or not there would be an even more pleasing sample set coming along in the future.

This makes me think there are HW owners out there who have no interest in ever playing any other samples than the one they've settled in on.

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 1:44 pm

I believe that the previously pictured terraced console has label strips that are interchangeable. Not a perfect solution but an innovative approach that obviously works for some organists.

Many of the churches I've worked with would prefer a "go to" sample set with engraved drawknobs or tabs. This is my personal favorite at the moment although the mapping of new sample sets varies from easy to very difficult so that it is helpful to keep a normal monitor or a touchscreen at hand for the occasional sample set that doesn't match up well with the existing engraving. It's hard to beat a set of drawknobs with professional engraving. With existing drawknobs the costs of replacing the old knobs with new engraving is not outrageous.

The dynamic stop labelling is simple enough and the cost varies a great deal with affordable displays readily available from offshore. Carelessly done I'm not sure why this is better than a touchscreen but with good attention to the look and feel of the switches and displays it's likely going to become a popular approach. This is a good area for the DIY programmer who is bored with doing yet another MIDI encoder.
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larason2

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 1:59 pm

Diodes are definitely a good way to isolate two different voltage sources, so this could potentially work. You would still need a second pin per stop however, to decide which voltage source to use for each stop. The arduino board you mention would work, but a standard Mega would also work, since you’re just using the digital in/outs for each pin.
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engrssc

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 2:11 pm

Was thinking of digital in (from HW) and analog out driving the LEDs directly. from each "Arduino" board. Kinda like the board output's would be functioning in parallel? The diodes would prevent interacting? Again, haven't actually tried this yet, but soon will. The difference between the two boards right now is $.50. :) 8)

Rgds,
Ed
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ReinerS

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Re: Hauptwerk consoles with mechanical stops?

PostTue Aug 10, 2021 3:01 pm

Neumie wrote:This may not add anything to the conversation, but this is the HW console that first caused me to ask the question.

The pipes are decorative and the console, as far as I know, doesn't generate any other sound. It's all HW.

It's hard to imagine having this many stops and having some of them be dormant because the user has a different sample set pulled up - ie, a set other than what the console what "intended" for. It would just be too hard to keep track of which stops are working and which aren't. (But I'm still a beginner organist, so I don't really know about these things. Maybe advanced guys can easily keep straight which stops are usable and which ones aren't.)

So I have to assume this person settled in on a sample set at some point and is committed for life to that one organ. I think this is owned by an organist in Germany, so maybe he only uses the sample set at home that's taken from a real-world favorite organ of his.

On top of everything else, this console is already a bunch of years old, built when HW was still new. It would seem to me there was no concern toward whether or not there would be an even more pleasing sample set coming along in the future.

This makes me think there are HW owners out there who have no interest in ever playing any other samples than the one they've settled in on.

Image

The console you are showing in this picture is the well known console of Jörg Glebe in Germany. It is cutom build by a company that normally builds such consoles for pipe organs and of top notch quality. Jörg is using exchangable strips with stop labels to change between sample sets, and he is using a lot of sample sets.
In pre-covid times he was actually organizing concerts on a quite regular basis, there is a thread somewhere on this forum where he is announcning new concerts when they come up. He would invite an organist to play on sample sets that the organist chooses for about 30 people (that's the max. fitting in his living room). Concerts are free, but interested listeners need to announce their interest via mail so he can make sure not to be overrun by more people than can be handled. A very nice guy btw. Hope he will be picking up the concert activities again soon!
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