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IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

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B777Captain

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IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostThu Apr 06, 2023 12:44 am

Guys…

I’ve been thinking about purchasing some/all of the IR’s offered by SP and would appreciate some feedback from those who have it and what they think of it and how easy it is to operate and switch between IR’s in the menus.

1. Are you happy with it as a reverb for our HW samples?

2. Can you use them for organs that have some reverb but you’d like the sample to have more by using the SP IR’s?

Thanks for your opinions everyone!!

Pat
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IainStinson

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostThu Apr 06, 2023 3:22 am

It is worth remembering that the IRs that come with HW are from Sonus Paradisi.

I use some of these with a few sample sets that are a little on the dry side to make them more to my taste and this woks well. You need to control the amount of wet signal they produce using the slider on the audio profile panel.

I’ve not bought any others.

Iain
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jerrymartin

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostThu Apr 06, 2023 7:16 am

Agree with all Ian has said - I purchased a few extra (specifically Groningen and Caen) - I make a lot of use of the diffuse Groning Rear IR for creation of surround sound effects in my room. They are excellent.
Jeremiah Martin,
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magnaton

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostFri Apr 07, 2023 2:15 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am curious as what the SP IR products have to offer that you can't get from the default ones in HW? From my experience, if I have a semi dry set that needs a little reverb boost, I can easily get by. I haven't found the need to go beyond that.

I may be answering my own question here, but I experienced a 'rolling reverb' effect at the Frauenkirche in downtown Munich. Here the reverb from a big final chord seemed to move up 1 decimal in amplitude then start to decay (thus the rolling effect). Quite breath taking I might add! This reverb style is similar to PG's Nancy sample set. So would I be able to load in a dry set, add this type of IR (if one exists), and achieve the same effect?

Thanks,

Danny B.
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larason2

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostFri Apr 07, 2023 3:35 pm

Magnaton: The answer to your Frauenkirche question is yes. However, remember that reverberations are frequency dependent! So you might find one chord or one frequency does what you want, but others don't. For many, that obvious "rolling" cancellation would be seen as undesirable, and when an organ is voiced, usually measures are taken to avoid it with common chords (that's why it's so rare in Hauptwerk!). Some amount of it is probably impossible to avoid though, you just have to find the right notes or chords!
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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostFri Apr 07, 2023 4:05 pm

magnaton wrote:I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am curious as what the SP IR products have to offer that you can't get from the default ones in HW? From my experience, if I have a semi dry set that needs a little reverb boost, I can easily get by. I haven't found the need to go beyond that. ...
Danny B.


Most of the demo IRs in HW are from one recording position, with one source and one type of microphone. Buying the complete set of IRs from SP for a building isn't necessary, but it adds the option of using different mic setups, such as omni or cardioid on your front speakers, and rear-facing cardioid on your rear speakers, to improve realism. Different divisions can be sent to IRs with a similar source position, although you need to know where the real organ's divisions are to make that realistic.

Also, just using more than one reverb type (for the same building) can make the reverb sound less uniform and stale and digital organ-like, though not usually as interesting as sampled releases.
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B777Captain

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostSun Apr 09, 2023 7:04 pm

The reason I am considering the SP IR's is ....and possibly erroneously so.... is that when I change the IR acoustics using my current HW settings list for IR's, the result is that in all cases, it seems to amplify the reed type stops MUCH more than any other stop sound... making the organ not pleasant to my ears, as well as increasing the volume significantly and having to reduce that in the master volume control about 5db's or so.

I would LOVE to post a video of how it is I change my IR's on my settings so you can see and maybe give me different alternatives to doing it because it seems over the years, its not been much to my liking. Sometimes, it seems to work ok, and most times it just sound way too "reedy" to my ears.... But I find it impossible to post a video on this website.

I'm HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY to make on for any individual who can possible help with this issue if you are so inclined to assist, via facebook message or some other medium.... because its getting more and more frustrating!!!

Pat
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mnailor

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostSun Apr 09, 2023 9:23 pm

That sounds like you're applying IR to ranks that aren't dry, nearly dry, or at least have all releases truncated. Reeds and upperwork do tend to get exaggerated by too much reverb and by compounding reverb on a wet sample, more so than milder and lower pitched stops.

And some IRs have smoother, more uniform frequency response than others. I've had better results from St. Maximin 5.7 seconds (Church09) and Izola 3.9 seconds (Church03), and that's partly supported by their time-frequency graphs in the SP IR Guide PDF.

I'd suggest trying to make it work with dry or truncated release samples adding either the Church03 or Church09 IR, with the default IR settings -- no changes to those until you get everything else right. If it's set up correctly, the Wetness Scalar % slider is the only adjustment you need until you're further along the learning curve. The Hauptwerk Installation and User Guide has several good examples of adding IR to buses.

There's not much point spending >= 50 euros (the minimum purchase) on IRs if you haven't worked out how to get a good sound out of the simple demo IRs first.

NOTE: Some samplesets just don't sound okay with added reverb. For example, I have struggled with Mt. Carmel Wet, with releases truncated, to find any IR settings that don't make the upperwork sound like a jangling noise to my ears, even though the rest of the organ sounds good. Same with the Georgian 55 Dry -- the upperwork gets unbearable to me when the rest sounds nice. But many other samplesets work just fine with a moderate amount of IR.
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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostMon Apr 10, 2023 5:25 am

Beitrag in DE siehe unten.

Hello Pat,

To 1.
If you mean with "our HW samples" all sample sets - that won't work or you won't be happy with that.

To 2.
The sample set must have a relatively dry acoustic. I would say max. 1.5 seconds.

My opinion and experience
------------------------------------
I have experimented with the IR's for a longer time. You can't have too high expectations in general. From the first question I can see that you approach the subject with the same euphoria as I once had. The result was rather sobering. But if you do it "right", an IR can be a very nice addition and lead to a good result.

I had thought that with the Caen IR, the Caen-Dry would sound good. The Caen-Dry was an absolute bad buy and I advise everyone not to buy this set. The samples are a raw format (at least that's what it sounds like) and sound very very horrible.
Later I bought the wet set. That SP offers this set for purchase, I feel as an absolute No Go.

I bought the Rotterdam Dry from SP as the first Dry set. The IR to the church there is unfortunately not. But that is now also not so important. The set sounds nice with IR, but doesn't have the sonic presence that the Wet set has. It sounds a bit thin, the sonic splendor of the wet set is not reached by any means. But the sound quality of the samples are worlds better than the Caen dry. A difference like day and night.

Then I also experimented with truncated releases. This sounds good with some sample sets. But I had to realize that it quickly gets boring if you use the same IR with different sets. It lacks the variety that is achieved through acoustics. From this experience grew my realization that the acoustics are the soul of the organ. In most cases, the organ was built for the room and also voiced for that room, i.e., the organ and the room belong together.

If you cut off the releases, you rob the organ of its soul. A flute from one sample set sounds like a flute from another sample set. That's why it quickly sounds boring and you don't really need many sets because the variety is missing.
I don't use truncated releases at all anymore for this reason. It makes no sense because the variety and individuality of the room is missing. You can't replace this effect with different IR's in my opinion.

Now I would like to come back to my statement from above - if you do it "right". Small acoustics can be effectively enriched with an IR. But again, I don't use the acoustics with 100% of the Wet slider. Most of the time, I get nice acoustics that sound natural with 5-12%.

If the acoustics are completely absent, then the IR comes into its own. In that case, I sometimes set the sliders to 60-100%. IR is very suitable for various sets. I use for example the PAB (Inspired Acoutics), Haverhill OIC (Lavender Audio) or the Pasadena (Evensong) permanently with IR's. In German there is the saying "Less is more". This usually applies to the use of IR intensity as well. Too much acoustic distorts the sound and also takes away the closeness to the pipes, which is what I like about the sample set.
The dry Concerto sample sets from Silver Octopus are also a recommendation for the use of IR's.

From my point of view, buying all the IR's from SP makes no sense. The IR's included with Hauptwerk are already a very good selection from SP. I use larger acoustics such as those from Zwolle occasionally. I would not buy the artificially created IR's offered.

In short
----------
  • Don't buy dry sets that are unprocessed (raw samples).
  • do not cut releases
  • use IR's only for sample sets with an acoustic of less than 1.5 seconds (= Semi-Dry?)
  • use the degree of acoustics cautiously to not distort the sound so much
  • for dry sets like SO's Concerto series, the PAB, Pasadena and other Semi-Dry sample sets, different IR's are worthwhile
  • for first experiences you can use the included IR's (from SP)

I have no experience with IR and Surround.
I hope that my experience with IR's will help you.

--- DE ------------------------------------------------------------

Hallo Pat,

zu 1.
Wenn du mit "our HW samples" alle Samplesets meinst - das funktioniert nicht bzw. damit wirst du nicht glücklich.

zu 2.
Das Sampleset muss eine relativ trockene Akustik haben. Ich würde sagen, max. 1.5 Sekunden.

Meine Meinung und Erfahrung
-----------------------------------------
Ich habe längere Zeit mit den IR's experimentiert. Man darf generell keine zu hohen Erwartungen haben. An der ersten Frage kann ich erkennen, dass du mit der gleichen Euphorie an die Thematik ran gehst, wie ich sie mal hatte. Das Ergebnis war eher ernüchternd. Wenn du das aber "richtig" machst, dann kann ein IR eine sehr schöne Ergänzung sein und zu einem guten Ergebnis führen.

Ich hatte gedacht, mit dem Caen-IR würde die Caen-Dry gut klingen. Die Caen-Dry war ein absoluter Fehlkauf und ich rate jedem davon ab, dieses Set zu kaufen. Bei den Samples handelt es sich um ein Raw-Format (so hört es sich zumindest an) und klingen sehr sehr schlecht.
Ich habe mir später das Wet-Set gekauft. Das SP dieses Set zum Kauf anbietet, empfinde ich als absolute Frechheit.

Ich habe als allererstes Dry-Set die Rotterdam-Dry von SP gekauft. Das IR zu der Kirche gibt es leider nicht. Aber das ist jetzt auch nicht mehr so wichtig. Das Set klingt mit IR schön, besitzt aber nicht die Klang-Präsenz, die das Wet-Set hat. Es klingt etwas dünn, die Klangpracht des Wet-Sets wird auf keinen Fall erreicht. Aber die Klangqualität der Samples sind um Welten besser, als die Caen-Dry. Ein Unterschied wie Tag und Nacht.

Dann habe ich auch mit abgeschnittenen Releases experimentiert. Das klingt bei einigen Samplesets gut. Aber ich musste feststellen, das es schnell langweilig wird, wenn man das gleiche IR mit verschiedenen Sets verwendet. Es fehlt die Abwechslung, die durch die Akustik erreicht wird. Aus dieser Erfahrung heraus wuchs meine Erkenntnis, dass die Akustik die Seele der Orgel ist. In den meisten Fällen wurde die Orgel für den entsprechenden Raum gebaut und auch für diesen Raum intoniert, d.h., die Orgel und der Raum gehören zusammen.

Schneidet man die Releases ab, dann beraubt man der Orgel die Seele. Eine Flöte des einen Samplesets klingt wie die Flöte eines anderen Samplsets. Darum klingt es schnell langweilig und man braucht eigentlich nicht viele Sets, weil die Abwechlung fehlt.
Abgeschnittene Releases verwende ich aus diesem Grund überhaupt nicht mehr. Das macht keinen Sinn, weil die Vielfalt und Individualität des Raumes fehlt. Diesen Effekt kann man durch verschiedene IR's meines Erachtens nicht ersetzen.

Jetzt möchte ich auf meine Aussage von oben zurückkommen - wenn man es "richtig" macht. Kleine Akustiken können effektvoll mit einem IR angereichert werden. Aber auch hier verwende ich die Akustik nicht mit 100% des Wet-Reglers. Meistens erhalte ich mit 5-12% eine schöne Akustik, die sich natürlich anhört.

Fehlt die Akustik komplett, dann kommt das IR voll zur Geltung. In dem Fall stelle ich die Regler auch mal auf 60-100%. Für diverse Sets ist IR sehr gut geeignet. Ich verwende z.B. die PAB (Inspired Acoutics), Haverhill OIC (Lavender Audio) oder die Pasadena (Evensong) permanent mit IR's. Im Deutschen gibt es den Spruch "Weniger ist Mehr". Das gilt meistens auch für die Verwendung der IR-Intensität. Zuviel Akustik verfälscht den Klang und nimmt dem Sound auch die Nähe zu den Pfeifen, was ich an dem Samplesets sehr mag.
Die trockenen Concerto-Samplesets von Silver Octopus sind auch eine Empfehlung für den Einsatz von IR's.

Aus meiner Sicht macht der Kauf aller IR's von SP keinen Sinn. Die zu Hauptwerk mitgelieferten IR's sind schon eine sehr gute Auswahl von SP. Eine größere Akustik wie z.B. die von Zwolle setze ich gelegentlich ein. Die angebotenen künstlich erzeugten IR's würde ich nicht kaufen.

Kurz gesagt
----------------
  • Kaufe keine Dry-Sets, die unbearbeitet sind (Raw Samples)
  • schneide keine Releases ab
  • verwende IR's nur bei Samplesets mit einer Akustik weniger als 1.5 Sekunden (= Semi-Dry?)
  • verwende den Grad der Akustik zurückhaltend, um den Klang nicht so sehr zu verfälschen
  • bei trockenen Sets wie die Concerto-Reihe von SO, die PAB, Pasadena und andere Semi-Dry-Samplesets lohnen sich verschiedene IR's
  • Für erste Erfahrungen kann man die mitgelieferten IR's (von SP) verwenden

Mit IR und Surround habe ich keine Erfahrung.
Ich hoffe, das dir meine Erfahrung mit IR's weiterhilft.
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Antoni Scott

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostTue Apr 11, 2023 12:16 pm

Not to sound negative but I have little use for the IR's that offer any improvement over the natural reverb that comes with the sample set. I went through every reverb on the list (offered with Version VII) that was longer than the original reverb just to see if there was a benefit. In most cases the organ sounded as if it were being listened to from the middle of the room, distant and almost muddy. I have a few dryer samples sets that made the organ sound a little better at the cost of losing clarity.
The problem with all long reverb sample sets is that they all lack clarity at the expense of an impressive full organ. I prefer the original reverb that comes with the sample set.
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mnailor

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostWed Apr 12, 2023 11:53 am

Antoni, I don't know what samplesets you added IR to to get a muddy sound, but it does require a lot of care and won't always work even with a lot of tweaking.

You certainly can't add IRs to ranks that have thick or long reverb already, and truncating releases only fades the tail without removing existing reverb from the sustain sample.

Dry or almost dry samplesets are the obvious place for IRs to succeed.

But there are some fine organs like the Portland Rosales where the organ is too big for the room and makes for an over-saturated sound. Taking the semi-dry Direct ranks and adding a more spacious IR like St. Maximin omni LR and LRw to them makes it sound much better and more open, in my opinion. I even keep the Diffuse and Rear ranks with the original 2 second reverb and use the sliders to balance between that and the St. Max 5 - 6 second reverb to taste. Not muddy at all.

That's just a (not very clever) trick, and certainly not something most people would like, I suspect. But I don't enjoy playing a big organ closed into a room with less than 3 seconds of reverb, so IRs let me use samplesets that would otherwise be uninstalled for good, and I have too many of those!

I grew up hearing deafening organs in dead, carpeted churches, so I'm admittedly overly sensitive to that.
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Antoni Scott

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Re: IR reverb from Sonus Paradisi thoughts/experience?

PostTue Jun 13, 2023 9:23 pm

I don't have much use for the IR's. They don't always change the sample set for the better but usually make the sound too muddy if the original sample set has a decent reverb to begin with. I have one sample set of the Estey reed organ which is almost dry and it benefits from an IR. In almost all cases, the original reverberation that is provided with the sample set is the best one.

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