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E.M. Skinner Preliminary Demo

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NeilCraig

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PostTue Nov 02, 2004 5:16 am

Hi Christian

To confirm, I'm talking about the "PF Usage" bar indicator in task manager/"MEM" under Windows 2000. I know that the process page can be set to display how much "virtual memory" each running process is using but I don't think this is what Jim is referring to. It also has nothing to do with the windows page file, which on my system is set to a static 300MB and is not on the windows system partition.

There is no earthly reason for 300MB worth of Windows-related resource-usage while Hauptwerk is being used for live playing, let alone 900MB! It is fairly easy to trim the RAM usage down regarding services and startup programs (Codestuff's Starter is an extremely useful utility for this!) and I would say for the regular HW user, less trouble than modifying a .organ file to reduce the Hauptwerk related RAM.

Best wishes//Neil
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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PeterD

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Ram Overheads

PostTue Nov 02, 2004 12:25 pm

"
"WindowsXP has a 2GB limit with only one processor installed. On a
motherboard with two processors, the limit is 4GB. In order to get to
4GB, the RAM must be dual channel or DDR and installed in pairs."
Not sure where you got this from though it would be very convenient if it worked out this way. I've got a HPX4000 and the high overheads are due I believe the way dual processor boards work. I started with a completely clean installation and the available Physical Memory is very similar to Jim's - around 3.2MB ( 4Gb Physical Ram).

Couple of questions which are pertinent to Hauptwerk

Is Hauptwerk able to take advantage of Dual processor boards ? - it isn't axiomatic that programmes will run faster just because there are two processors - they have to be written to take advantage of dual processing hyperthreading comes to mind, can anybody enlighten us on this one?

The issue for Hauptwerk 1.22 is that it isn't simply the available RAM,- the largest single executable is still 2GB regardless of whether you have two processors or one. The /3GB switch was used routinely and succesfully in other commercial applications - certainly on HPX4000 - see previous thread regarding fix for HW1.22

So whether your dual processor machine will be faster and (b) whether it will be able to use available RAM is still moot - Can anybody put this one to bed ?

Best to All

Peter
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Jim Reid

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PostTue Nov 02, 2004 3:13 pm

Hi again,

Well, in three or four weeks, when Brett's Skinner organ CD gets
out here to Kauai, we will see whether the entire organ will
load and have all stops playable with the full virtual console displayed
with a screen resolution of 1280x1024.

Certainly would like to know IF there is a way to reduce the "cache"
set aside that XPPro seems to use; apparentyly the more physical
RAM is in the PC, the more is used! Is there a percentage setting
somewhere which can be reached and lowered??

Thanks,
Jim Reid
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mdyde

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PostTue Nov 02, 2004 3:28 pm

Is Hauptwerk able to take advantage of Dual processor boards


In the present version - no. The MIDI and audio systems run in separate threads so there may be a slight benefit in using multiple processors, but not a great deal. However, the forthcoming v2 will have full optimisation for multiple processors, with the audio engine balancing the load from sounding pipes between the available processors.

The /3GB switch was used routinely and succesfully in other commercial applications


It looks likely that I will make a version 1.23 of Hauptwerk which will support the /3GB switch in XP Pro, i.e. allow an organ sample set of up to 3 GB in size to be loaded. This change is primarily to support Brett's Skinner sample set. (There will definitely be no other changes in v1.23.)

Martin.
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NeilCraig

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Re: Ram Overheads

PostTue Nov 02, 2004 3:57 pm

PeterD wrote:"
got a HPX4000 and the high overheads are due I believe to the way dual processor boards work. I started with a completely clean installation and the available Physical Memory is very similar to Jim's - around 3.2MB ( 4Gb Physical Ram).

Peter


I don't believe the numbers provided by Task Manager- they don't add up. A snapshot of my system shows:

Total = 1572336KB
Available = 1208228
System Cache = 256484
Commit Charge = 189620

If you add the last three columns you get 1654332

So, Microsoft, from which of these figures can one deduce the *actual* RAM being used by Windows?

With regard to your experiences, I believe you but WHY this is so is still not clear to me. My friend in TX has done exhaustive research into Hypertransport, NetBurst, Hyperthreading et al, ad nauseam so I will run this past him.

Best wishes//Neil
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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PeterD

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HW 1.23

PostTue Nov 02, 2004 4:14 pm

Martin

Thanks -that's just perfect - as good as we're going to get till 64 Bit comes along - roll out the Skinner Brett !

Regards

Peter
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B. Milan

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PostTue Nov 02, 2004 11:24 pm

It's rolling!
Brett Milan
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MILAN DIGITAL AUDIO

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jdean

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PostFri Nov 12, 2004 4:44 pm

Just listened to the Widor with the Skinner organ. I'm certainly no authority on sample sets, but this is the best that I've heard - top of the market ?? My machine is 1.5GB and if I purchase the Skinner I would probably use a sub-set (would not use all the pipes in any case - I'm not too much of a reed fan).

Thanks for your labours, Brett - must have been hard work.

Best regards,
John Dean (Brighton , UK)
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GDay

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Skinner

PostSat Nov 13, 2004 10:16 pm

Hello Haupwerkians,
Here I sit and chafe, chafe and fret; what nooz of Skinner?! I check, double check, triple check, then check again for good measure, but to no avail. Is there balm in Giliad? maybe; are there smiles in Mudville? maybe, but there are no smiles here, for of Skinner, mighty Skinner there is no news. When I was a young lad of seventeen or so, I was struck with the love of organ music. Knowing nothing about it, other than the sure knowledge that I loved the sound, I sought to increase my knowledge through records, and I used to haunt a local record store on st. catherine's street called "The Cave", I guess because it was in a basement. There I bought my first organ records. Their collection was small, which was just as well, and I would survey the stock wondering which of the unknown names I would choose. On one such outing, I chose an album of Cesar Franck, mainly because the cover graphic had Franck's head, and where the neck ought to have been, octapus tentacles branched out and morphed into organ pipes. Quite impressive really. I've never seen it's like since. Any how, the organist was one Marcel Dupre, another unknown name to me at that time. Of the organ, nothing. It was after all, a cut rate re-issue. Ahh, Le Grande Piece Symphonique! What a discovery,I was in love. I played that record over and over, and even to this day I can play each tone, each swell, every harmony in my mind, I had never heard the like. Years later, long after that record had returned to where ever old and beloved records go, I sought the issue again, and happily as it turned out, that purple Franck head octapus pipe recording had been a re-issue of a Mercury Living Presence record, now reissued on it's own, in all it's original glory. The organ was the St. Thomas church organ in New York city. . . reverent pause . . . Need I say more? need the sylables ski-ner issue from my lips? or my fingers? The Skinner organ of Dupre fame has been the stuff of dreams for lo these many years, and now, on the edge of realization, I fret, I chafe. What news? What news? One by land, or two by sea? . . .
G'Day
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B. Milan

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PostSun Nov 14, 2004 2:10 pm

G'Day,

Do not chafe and fret, as Skinner's time is near.
A new release date does now seem more clear.
You will be glad to know as I remember,
Your Skinner will arrive by early December!
Brett Milan
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B. Milan

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PostMon Nov 15, 2004 1:29 am

Ok, on a more serious note this time, realizing my poor poetic talents. For the most part the samples are finished pending testing. I have some numbers (hot off the press) regarding file sizes for those of you that are interested to see how the organ breaks down. Here we go:

Great = 825 MB
Swell = 942 MB
Choir = 762 MB
Pedal = 219 MB

Grand Total = 2748 MB or 2.75GB

These numbers include everything that comes with this sample set, including Zimbelstern, Blower Noise, Carillon, Chimes, Celesta and Harp.

That should fit nicely on a machine with 3GB total with 275MB left to spare for running XP and HW etc. I have thought about relooping the beast a 3rd time (yes I'm serious) but I feel it would not make a significant difference in getting the whole lot in under 2GB. Since this fits in under 3 GB nicely I've decided to leave the loops as they are.

We must now deal with documentation, packaging, CD/DVD formatting and, oh yes, creating some more demonstrations! I'm actually still awaiting music that was ordered to perform for these demos. Tell OHS to get it here quick! I need to learn it! I also plan to complete the entire Widor Romane Symphonie soon as well.

For those of you still wondering about pricing...that information should be available very soon. Again, thanks to everyone so far who has shown their interest and given me their support whether through this forum or by email or phone. It's these things that keep me going during the long editing hours.

Best wishes.
Brett Milan
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Jim Reid

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Suggested reading.....

PostMon Nov 15, 2004 8:18 pm

Hi,

I would urge you to buy and have a read of many of the letters contained
in this book: "The American Classic Organ, A History in Letters", by
Charles Callahan. This book was published in 1990 by OHS, I bought
it that same year. The writting was subsidized by subscritions paid by
many prominent American names of the pipe organ world. It is just
plain fascinating!!

It begins with a letter written 26 March 1924 from Henry Willis III to Ernest
Skinner. This letter begins a 34 year correspondence between these
two men about all sorts of pipe organ topics: from tonal matters,
construction details, the politics of the organ manufacturing industry,
etc., etc. The final letter of the volume carries two dates, the letter
having been started one day, then completed on another; the dates,
Feb. 18 and Feb. 28 1958. This letter is from Ernest Skinner to Henry
Willis III. It is rather a summary of Skinner's work in the pipe organ
world, and he winds up applying for a flue voicing job for which
Willis has been advertising!! Skinner laments that he was "frozen"
out of his company by another (see many other letters for the details),
explains he is essentially out of funds, but has written a book, his
"The Composition of the Organ" which upon publication he plans will
keep him well funded for the rest of his life. In this letter, Skinner
ourlines for Willis the list of some 34 new organ voices Skinner
developed over his career, of one in particular he is most proud,
his French Horn (note this stop in in the Choir division of the comming
Milan Audio Sample set for Hauptwerk). Skinner had also specifically
mentioned this stop years earlier, in fact in an "open" letter to
"The American Organist" in which he explains why he did not
bid on Senator Richards specification for the huge Atlantic City
Auditorium organ (not sufficient available funds, only about $240
per pipe rank, with which he says he could not possibly build such
a huge machine nor make any profit), see his letter in the book,
dated May 6, 1929. In the letter he specifically criticzes Sen. Richards
for calling for a French Horn, of the Skinner sort, but without giving
any "credit" as Skinner calls it, for doing so --- just some insight
into the "politics" of organ building during its' peak period in the
USA, at least during Wurlitzer's peak factory output time.

If you are thinking of buying Brett Milan's Skinner organ CD, as I
do, you owe yourself the pleasure of reading this compilation of
letters! You will certainly completley understand Skinner's philosophy
of organ tone and building, as well as gain appreciation for all that
has impacted the development of the organ called "American Classic".

As a postscript to this, I must quote from one of Skinner's letters in
which he gives his opinion of the neo-baroque organs being sold to
the public in those days. Letter is dated Jan. 6, 1944, sent to
William King Covell:

" Dear Mr. Covell: Why meet Richards, I mean
myself -- I am not interested in meeting one who is as old as Richards
and learned so little. His opinions are fixed and founded on nothing
we have in common. My prime intersest is music. All my opinions are
based upon music, .........the Baroque organ (some particular one
not identified is the subject here)......I have heard it. It is shrill
and cold as ice as are all Harrison organ. But you like them,
with which fact I have no quarrel. But there is much to be loved
in music which you are missing......The shrill high-pitched stuff
you care for means nothing to me but distress. My only kick
in the matter is the disappointed public who are led to spend
money for the Baroque stuff and then get nothing out of
it. I wish I could get a chance to build a Baroque organ. I'll bet I could
build one we both like and the public as well. But those who build them
have a posidtive genius for building unmusical tone. They don't know
how to make pipes to start with!..........I built an organ for.....and
the stop most commented upon was a 3 rank mixture which can be used
in combination with Flute Celeste and which also is in correct proportion
to full Swell. It is a beauiful sound.

Did you ever hear the Wahington Cathedral organ [by Skinner], and if
so, what was the matter with the 43 ranks of mixture work in this
organ which seveeral have spoken of as the greatest in the world?
Very truly, E.M.Skinner "

This letter appears to have been
written when Skinner was 90 years old (born 1866, died 1960).
Unfortunately, it appears Skinner's book on "The Composition of
the Organ" was never published, at least I can find no record
about it, neither did he ever return to England and the Willis
factory once again where he had visited times before.

Now, haveing read that letter, have another look at the Skinner
specification of the instrument coming from Milan Digital Audio:

http://www.milandigitalaudio.com/skinner.htm

Note the number of 8' ranks and their names, even the 8' French
Horn of the Chorit.

I certainly am on pins and needles awaiting Brett's new release!
Jim Reid
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Jim Reid

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An oops....

PostMon Nov 15, 2004 8:23 pm

Hi again,

I mean the final letter of the book from Skinner to Willis III was
written when Skinner was 90; not the 1944 letter of his dislike
for the neo-Baroque organs being built in those days. He was
76 that year, and well opinionated as you can see.
Jim Reid
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positive

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PostMon Nov 15, 2004 11:38 pm

B. Milan wrote:That should fit nicely on a machine with 3GB total with 275MB left to spare for running XP and HW etc. I have thought about relooping the beast a 3rd time (yes I'm serious) but I feel it would not make a significant difference in getting the whole lot in under 2GB. Since this fits in under 3 GB nicely I've decided to leave the loops as they are.


Can somebody refresh my memory where do we stand on using the 3GB memory with the Hauptwerk - is the HW1 version allowing this available (after of course performing the switch in XP Pro) ?
Black Friday deals on memory are posssibly approaching and if there would be some 1 GB sticks...
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B. Milan

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PostTue Nov 16, 2004 1:08 am

Can somebody refresh my memory where do we stand on using the 3GB memory with the Hauptwerk - is the HW1 version allowing this available (after of course performing the switch in XP Pro) ?


Martin has reworked HW 1.22 to version 1.23 which will handle and perform with the 3 GB switch. So, if you have the memory, it will work once you've upgraded to version 1.23. The program is currently in beta testing so until further information is known that is as much as I can tell you for now. My thanks to Martin yet again for reworking HW for the use of the Skinner.

It looks likely that I will make a version 1.23 of Hauptwerk which will support the /3GB switch in XP Pro, i.e. allow an organ sample set of up to 3 GB in size to be loaded. This change is primarily to support Brett's Skinner sample set. (There will definitely be no other changes in v1.23.)

Martin.
Brett Milan
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