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Sample MIDIs starting at 024

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VulcanStarlight

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Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSat Oct 02, 2021 9:38 pm

Hello to my wonderful Hauptwerk community,

I have been busy at work creating a composite set and have now reached the point of development where I have come across a folder with samples starting at 024 insstead of 036. All of these ranks that share this feature behave the same from one to the next. Just for example, Bourdon 8' SW (sample 024) plays the same audible frequency as Flute Harmonique 8' GT (sample 036). How would I go setting up a 61 note setup for this type of configuration? Will this be in both table 'Rank' and 'StopRank'? How would one go about setting up a normal rank of pipes to play the correct pitches? Feedback much appreciated! I have struggled getting the sound output to not sound odd or warped.

- Hans :)
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 3:51 am

Hello Hans,

To confirm, do you mean that:

a) If opened in an audio editor (assuming the sample file isn't encrypted), the pitch of sample file 024 is very roughly around 65 Hz (which is the approximate pitch of a bottom C on 61-note 8' rank on an organ tuned to A=440/equal). And:

b) The rank has 61 samples. And:

c) In your CODM ODF you want the stop to sound at 8' pitch, i.e. so that the bottom C key on a 61-note keyboard plays at around 65 Hz (assuming the user has A=440/equal selected).

[Usually if a sample set producer starts a rank's note numbering at 024 it's because the rank is unified to several stops of different pitches, with the rank's lowest octave of samples actually being a 16' octave. E.g. theatre organ sample sets often number their samples that way, since they're heavily unified.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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VulcanStarlight

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 4:05 am

Hello Martin,

Yes, the low 024 sample sounds at 65 hertz roughly, the numbering goes all the way from 024 through 096, 73 notes, but I only really plan on the normal key compass anyways, and in the CODM I’m trying to set the rank (and similar ones) up to play at their given pitch. I believe the set I’m referencing did it because they have a special swell division coupler called an ‘Aequellage’. But yes, all of the 024s, I believe, play their respective 036s counterparts if it were compared to another normal rank. What is an example entry for setting up just 61 of these pipes in a single rank, for normal operation? My current set up I haven’t figured out what I’m doing incorrectly.

Hans

(Edit: I should mention this is Billerbeck that I’m using)
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 4:34 am

Thanks, Hans.

In that case you could set up the CODM attributes as follows:

Rank.NumberOfPipes=73
Rank.MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe=36
Rank.Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples=-12 [that's *minus* 12]
Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0 (assuming that the pitch has been detected and stored within the sample files, which most sample set producers do, otherwise 8).

... and for an 8' stop:

StopRank.RankID=[the ID of the Rank object above]
StopRank.NumberOfMappedDivisionKeys=61
StopRank.MIDINoteNumOfFirstMappedDivisionKey=36
StopRank.MIDINoteNumIncrementFromDivisionToRank=0

... or for a 4' stop:

StopRank.RankID=[the ID of the Rank object above]
StopRank.NumberOfMappedDivisionKeys=61
StopRank.MIDINoteNumOfFirstMappedDivisionKey=36
StopRank.MIDINoteNumIncrementFromDivisionToRank=12 [that's plus 12]


I.e. if you set it up this way you would be treating the rank as if it was of 8' pitch, but using Rank.Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples=-12 to shift the note number range.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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VulcanStarlight

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 1:52 pm

Greetings Martin,

I have filled out the tables but with one small problem - the ranks are playing one octave higher than they should. Since the Swell Bourdon 8 024 sample should (hopefully) play on the keyboard as C1, and 036 sample should play a C2, I’m not sure if I’m missing something. Do I have to set Rank.MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe=24? I’ve tried that in the past but the problem is this division closed and I get an error about the frequencies maximum and minimum. The sound is a bit distorted on the Swell Bourdon 8 I just test-configured in the tables, but changing those certain fields make the pipes play the wrong frequencies. The funny thing is the other division samples in Billerbeck are not configured this way, just the swell. But you’re correct, and with the physical midi keyboard I’m using, the goal is to press the lowest C (C1) and play the 024 sample in a rank. Any feedback?
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 2:06 pm

Hello Hans,

Did you set Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch to 0 or 8? If needed I will then try to set up a test CODM ODF and rank of samples here tomorrow to test the settings I'd suggested, in case I overlooked something.
Best regards, Martin.
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VulcanStarlight

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 2:34 pm

Hello Martin,

I have it set to harmonic value 8. Also noticing while experimenting most of the things I’ve tried do not allow anything past C5 to be played, the rest of the keys up the octave are silent. I’m not sure if I just spoofed on a major detail, but I’ve tried experimenting with different values and same story… i’m wondering if I need to set either of the tables first midi note to something different. For further rank testing on this 8’ stop, I (currently) have test settings:

Rank:

NumberOfPipes:61
MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe:24
Samples_MidiNoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples:0 (because the first key C1 should play 024)
Samples_RankBasePitch64… 8
Pitch_RankBaseOutput64… 8

And StopRank:

MIDINoteIncrementFromDiv… 0 (because of matching the rank table)
MIDINoteNumOfFirstMapped… 36
NumberOfMappedDivisionKeys: 61

This unfortunately yields the incomplete octave and pitch-shifted problems, and with an enclosure enabled, causes that minimum maximum error so I had to disable enclosures temporarily :cry:
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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostSun Oct 03, 2021 9:31 pm

Martin's definitely the expert when it comes to these problems! However, my approach to the same problem is a bit different. This is what I would do:

<NumberOfPipes> 73
<MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe> 36
<Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples> -12
<Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum> 4

Basically, I make it a 16 foot rank, then if I want an 8 foot rank, I shift it in the stop rank as Martin described. However, you have to make sure the samples are encoded to match this! Some sample set makers have note 24 encoded as 8 foot starting at note 24, in which case, you would have to either adjust <Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum> or
<Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch> to get it to work. Try adjusting these to different values, and see what you get. Also don't forget <Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples> is very important to get the rank to sound right!
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostMon Oct 04, 2021 7:26 am

Hello Hans,

To add to larason2's reply (thanks, larason2):

I've made a minimal CODM ODF and a test rank of samples to test the settings I'd suggested previously, i.e.:

mdyde wrote:Rank.NumberOfPipes=73
Rank.MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe=36
Rank.Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples=-12 [that's *minus* 12]
Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0 (assuming that the pitch has been detected and stored within the sample files, which most sample set producers do, otherwise 8).

... and for an 8' stop:

StopRank.RankID=[the ID of the Rank object above]
StopRank.NumberOfMappedDivisionKeys=61
StopRank.MIDINoteNumOfFirstMappedDivisionKey=36
StopRank.MIDINoteNumIncrementFromDivisionToRank=0


Those settings do work properly with my test rank (which has samples with filenames starting at 024, with 024 being ~65 Hz), provided that Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0.

I would always recommend using Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0 (which means "read samples' pitches from the exact pitch values stored in the samples by the sample set producer) anyway, unless there's a good reason not to (e.g. if the sample set producer hasn't stored any pitches, but most do), since using the stored values (if any) is likely to give more accurate tuning.

However, if you set Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=8 then in this case the rank would actually sound one octave too high, so my original reply was incorrect in that respect -- my apologies.

Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch specifies the samples' pitches relative to the MIDI note numbers of their filenames, hence you would need to set Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=16 (not 8) in this case. If you do that, you should find it works (but I'd still recommend using 0 instead if possible anyway).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostMon Oct 04, 2021 7:25 pm

Ah! I have successfully accessed the low 024 sample as a playable note, playing the correct pitches. I applied all settings suggested and found major success. Thank you both for your kind and generous support in this issue and the quick responses. I believe the samples sound like they should now at this point. Cheers! :mrgreen:

I decided to use the binary codes for the SamplesRankPitch entry, because 0 was effecting celesting rank effects. Those ranks work too and undulate properly now that I used the harmonic codes. Now that everything works, I will get ready to go contact Francois for IDs so I can apply changes to the source files for when I get closer to a final result.

Best regards,
Hans
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostTue Oct 05, 2021 3:44 am

Thanks, Hans. Excellent. You're very welcome.

VulcanStarlight wrote:I decided to use the binary codes for the SamplesRankPitch entry, because 0 was effecting celesting rank effects.


Just in case you weren't aware of it, if you were to use Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0, which should ensure that all tuning is correct for the user-selected temperament and base pitch, then you could use:

Rank.Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones
Rank.Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones

... to sharpen/flatten the tuning to taste for celeste ranks.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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VulcanStarlight

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostTue Oct 05, 2021 6:16 am

Good to know, Martin. I am actually quite glad you mentioned that, I was not fully informed of that entry’s function. Always wondered about that. The best way to way to make a custom undulating rank
I suppose too. Testing that resulted in good outcomes too! Excited for its possibilities.

Thanks again!
Hans
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mdyde

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Re: Sample MIDIs starting at 024

PostTue Oct 05, 2021 6:26 am

Thanks, Hans.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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