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Hall sensors

Building organ consoles for use with Hauptwerk, adding MIDI to existing consoles, obtaining parts, ...
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 3:19 am

Lacking specific details, my question relates to how the various components were chosen.

Rgds,
Ed
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andrewmorley

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 11:01 am

I haven't been able to find any information on the Elegoo Mega from MidiKits??
You need to provide more details - model, specifications, link, code. Is this encoder to connect to a matrix? If so, which configuration?

Are you using the Midi Boutique keymux64 for the manuals or a pedalboard conversion?

Which supplier for the Hall sensors?

Rgds,
Ed[/quote]

This is the encoder, it’s listed here as an Arduino but it was actually an Elegoo brand one I was supplied with.

https://www.midikits.net/midi_3_8x8_8x4 ... _3_exp.htm

My keyboards are connected to this from Fatar PCBs via MidiBoutique SMDfs

The keymux is for my pedalboard and the hall sensors are also from MidiBoutique

The code for the arduino came preloaded onto it from Midikits
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larason2

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 11:59 am

I believe it’s like I said. The trouble with mixing and matching components is you don’t know how they are going to work together. Sometimes they do, but sometimes they don’t. The Mega encoder you bought is designed to work with a matrix you make yourself using diodes. It’s not too hard to do this wiring, and that’s probably the easiest to wire up your manuals. You will need probably about 200 diodes, and you can use the cheapest signalling diodes you can find. The Hall sensor kit is meant to be plugged into the MPC32MQ encoder, which is what I recommend you buy. You can get a midi merger to combine the two midi outputs, or buy a computer interface that has more than one midi in on it.
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 12:23 pm

The extra details provide a better picture of what you are trying to do. Looking it over, appears doable albeit with some tweaks esp with the installation being necessary. This isn't the easiest, most straight forward method(s) however.

larason2 wrote:The Mega encoder you bought is designed to work with a matrix you make yourself using diodes. It’s not too hard to do this wiring, and that’s probably the easiest to wire up your manuals. You will need probably about 200 diodes, and you can use the cheapest signaling diodes you can find..


If you need a source for 8 X 8 (or 8 X 4) matrix boards, Gino has these

https://www.shop.gino-midi.nl/product/decoder-met-matrix-bouwpakket-2/?lang=en

I have bought these raw, unpopulated boards from Gino as a special order item. Some re-wiring is necessary to the output IDE header, A raw PCB makes this easier. Also, after placing such a special order item(s), you may need to wait for Gino to place a new order for these boards, as he would add your order to his order.

An alternate options are to use the Midi Boutique board made for this setup as larason2 suggested.

Have you tried disconnecting everything from the Arduino Mega encoder board and wire just the pedal matrix board to see how that works independent of everything else. A basic trouble shooting technique. BTW, what are you using for the pedal board 8 X 4 matrix board?

From the encoder details,

https://www.midikits.net/midi_3_8x8_8x4_8x5_3_exp/switches_8x4_PB_Bass_ct.gif

Again, if wired properly with a correct pedal board matrix, this should work. The Arduino Mega is certainly capable. From everything you've said so far, I'd focus on the pedal board matrix and these connections. Disconnecting everything else eliminates everything else from being involved with the problem.

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 3:53 pm

Without detailed information about what sensors, matrix arrangement and encoders are being used it's difficult to diagnose what the trouble might be. However, it would be wrong to assume that Hall sensors can simply be substituted for mechanical (or to some extent optical) switches.

One significant feature is that they can take quite a long time (milliseconds or more) to 'fire up' after the supply has been connected. For a fast scanning system designed for mechanical switches and a diode matrix its quite possible that the sensors won't have time to settle properly during one scan cycle.

One foolproof way of accomplishing matrix-like behaviour using slow sensors it to use tri-state octal buffers.

There is some dicussion from a few years ago here: https://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14285&p=107062&hilit=hall#p107054
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 4:17 pm

NickNelson wrote:Without detailed information about what sensors, matrix arrangement and encoders are being used it's difficult to diagnose what the trouble might be. However, it would be wrong to assume that Hall sensors can simply be substituted for mechanical (or to some extent optical) switches.


Agree, but for the most part, pedal boards are less (speed) demanding, than would be the case for keyboard (manual) switches / sensors. At least for most organists.

There are several suppliers making Hall effect sensors, etc available specifically for pedal boards.

andrewmorley wrote: The sensors are still producing constant on/off messages.


I'm not sure this problem would stem from a problem of slow Hall sensors. that is unless they were producing an oscillating type effect. I could wrong as don't have much experience with them. OTOH, I've outfitted / MIDI-fied several pedal boards successfully with very reliable reed switches. Rodgers still uses this method for their pedal boards.

(And only recently in this thread found the issue has to do with a pedal board). And there is no detailed information about the cide / sketch used for the Arduino Mega, altho from the listed specs looks to be okay??? :wink:

Then there is John's caution from another thread which should be considered carefully: :o

https://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19550&start=15#p148900

I do have this (inborn) curiosity as to why something isn't working ((properly) , but for important stuff, I agree with John. For quite some time, I have been drawn to Roman's (MIDI Hardware) products as being reliable, cost effective as well as being easy to configure You may have noticed his website is down right now for updating and to add some new products. :) 8)

Rgds,
Ed
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larason2

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 10:30 pm

I agree with you Ed that it’s worth paying more for something that just works if you don’t have the technical skills and/or patience to pull off a home built solution. On the other hand, if you’re ok waiting months for a home made solution to work, you will learn a lot along the way. Not sure if our original poster is ok with programming and/or the frustration of things not working for a long time. Sometimes there is no easy way, however.
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 11:29 pm

larason2 wrote:Sometimes there is no easy way, however.


With all due respects, and I have a lot of respect for Hauptwerk, for sure for many folks, getting one's head around HW isn't easy. Besides the learning curve, there is the need to apply application skills since every installation is different. Following the user manual is vital. But who has time to read and learn all that stuff. :shock: (Said with an amount of sarcasm). Just guessing, but for most of us, myself included, it's more like If all else fails, read the instructions. Something like going off road with a subcompact Mini Cooper. It's all about learning and appreciating the knowledge of many Forum members, esp Martin and François.

Rgds,
Ed
Last edited by engrssc on Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 11:31 pm

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andrewmorley

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Re: Hall sensors

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am

UPDATE:
Thank you for the advice everyone, I’ve just ordered the MidiBoutique encoder!!
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 10:12 am

Is your plan to use this Midi Boutique encoder for your pedalboard?

Are you still using the Arduino encoder for the manuals and possibly other buttons, etc?

Rgds,
Ed
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andrewmorley

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Re: Hall sensors

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 1:19 pm

I will use it for everything I think and then reuse the arduino for another project!
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engrssc

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Re: Hall sensors

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 8:51 pm

After doing some research, I have some questions for andrewmorley

Did you have the Arduino/Elegoo encoder connected to Hauptwerk when you saw the rapid note-on/note-off messages or just observe these when connected thru the computer to Midi View? If when connected to Hauptwerk. did you hear/observe evidence of these rapid note-on/note-off messages? When you have the encoder "connected" to play Hauptwerk, you can open Midi View at the same time (basically in parallel). You can also see the results using the Hauptwerk log. Connecting the encoder only to the Midi View can give an incorrect read under certain conditions.

Likewise did you have the encoder connected to Hauptwerk via the computer to play the manuals (keyboards)? Did they play properly?

What I'm getting at is if the keyboards played ok, the pedals should also play ok, regardless of what you might be seeing when the encoder was connected only to Midi View. Maybe to test the pedal matrix for instance? Just a theory, without seeing the actual code (sketch) that the code likely used a single de-bouncer for the manuals as well as the pedal board.

In essence, it could be that the Arduino/Elegoo encoder is really functioning correctly. What I'm seeing is that the programmer, Tom Scarff who wrote the code, knew what they were doing. Everything in the connecting diagrams looks to be correct and well thought out. Looks to be quite a clever little board albeit with the use of many matrixes. Aside from needing matrixes, the only thing I see that might be missing for a small instrument is switching for such as a coupler rail. BTW, I remember seeing Tom's work back in the days when I was building Schober organs.

https://www.midikits.net/midi_3_8x8_8x4_8x5_3_exp/midi_3_8x8_8x4_8x5_3_exp.htm

Arduino/Elegoo encoder should be able to deal with everything tho. As I mentioned in another thread, my biggest "thing" about Arduinos' is their method of connecting. :?

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Hall sensors

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 8:41 am

Hi Ed. Sorry, I posted some replies on Facebook that didn’t make their way here. I analyzed the code and found that the original Arduino code has the columns on Output High for the majority of the runtime. Given this, it isn’t advised to interface the Arduino with any other boards. Andrew was going to look into reprogramming the Arduino, but even for me this would have been tricky! So I agree with Andrew ordering the HWCE2 board. I’ve used that board extensively, and I’ve been very happy with it. I hope it works well!
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Re: Hall sensors

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 11:31 am

Hi Ed
Thanks for your comments. To answer your questions I get the same MIDI messages on Hauptwerk on its own, on MIDI View on its and with both pieces of software running. The thing woth the pedal sensors is that they are not in a matrix so the KeyMux works as a scanmatrix but the Mega needs the inputs in matrix form. The manuals connect straight into the arduino and are absolutely fine. As larason said there is something g woth the code has the column output as high and this is not right for talking to the keymux. This level of code is way beyond me too! You are right Tom certainly knows what he’s doing with his products and code I’ve just come to the conclusion that my cutting corners by using different devices is the issue.
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