Blind Combination System

I'm being asked more frequently by people hearing about VTPOs, the following question:
I'd like to gut my old analogue organ (e.g. Rodgers Trio, Conn 580 etc.) but there isn't room, or I can't afford to install SAMS. I don't want to use touch screen/s to change stops. Can Hauptwerk be configured for a "blind combination" setup?.
i.e. an extra piston per manual (& maybe one for a general) used to enable the stop rail tabs, so by pressing any normal preset piston, that division's (or all, if it's a general) current stop positions are ignored, until this "stop rail on" piston is hit.
This is how most of the analogue organs from the 70's & 80's worked, when they didn't have SAMS.
Is this a possibility with Hauptwerk. If so, I think many more people are going to be very very interested.
Gary

Gary,

You raise an interesting point. Some older consoles such as the models you listed cannot accommodate SAMs without major surgery, and then there's the cost. On the other hand, the existing stop keys could be MIDIfied rather easily and used to control Hauptwerk stops. What is needed is a switch mechanism in the ODF that would act like a special piston that tells Hauptwerk to (exclusively) engage the stops drawn on the console. Any other piston would set the combination according to the registration in Hauptwerk. The special piston would not need to be represented on screen, it would just need to be a physical switch on the console. As you suggest, this could be done at the division level and/or as a general.

I do not know how challenging it would be to code this into an ODF as this is not my area of expertise. I will suggest to my partner Alan Baker that he consider the idea for our Paramount series.

Joe Hardy
Paramount Organ Works

Thanks Joe
It will be interesting to hear what Alan & others have to say on this issue.
To me, it sounds like you would need to ignore/disable midi info from the relative stops while a piston is in effect, then enable again once the "Stop Rail" piston is hit.
And as I said in my first post, this could "open the doors" for a lot of people with consoles without SAMS.
Gary

[mdyde]

Hello Gary/Joe,

There's no technical difficulty for a sample set producer to make an organ definition that has that functionality. It could be done fairly easily in the 'full' organ definition format but not in the Custom Organ Design Module format alone (since the later is designed to keep things simple).

For example, the FF and PP pistons on the St. Anne's sample set are effectively blind combinations that behave similarly.

I have a theatre console with no SAMS. I have done the following to, at least temporarily, address the problem.
In addition to the normal pistons I have a special “Stop Rail Restore” piston. Pressing this will do two things:
1. Issues a General Cancel to HW
2. Drops the common to all stop keys
Releasing this piston will restore the common, causing MIDI status to be sent to HW for all stops that are on. The result is now a combination that is reflected by the stop rail.

If you happen to use a MidiBoutique encoder you may like this approach. Wire the boards reset pins to a piston. If you send a general cancel and then hit this reset piston you will set all the stops that are switched on. This works because on startup the encoder scans for all closed inputs (keys, stops, pistons) and sends them to HW.
This definitely works on the hwce-max and probably with the hwce as well. With my Rodgers 321A console there's actually a piston labelled "stop rail" so obviously that's the one I used.

There's no technical difficulty for a sample set producer to make an organ definition that has that functionality. It could be done fairly easily in the 'full' organ definition format .............

It can also be done by someone other than a sample set producer that has experience working with organ definition files provided that the ODF is not encrypted by the sample set producer.

It can also be done by someone other than a sample set producer that has experience working with organ definition files provided that the ODF is not encrypted by the sample set producer.

Good point; however AFAIK there are no unencrypted theatre organs. Our model 310 will be free and will run with the free version of Hauptwerk, but the ODF and samples will be encrypted.

Joe

Per S,
Does this "Stop Rail Restore" piston have 2 contacts? One normally closed, which will open & break the common when pressed, then close when released so midi signals for all the on stops will be sent, and another normally open which will close when pressed & send a midi on signal to HW so it can trigger the General Cancel. How does one make certain the General Cancel occurs before the common is broken & then restored? I assume when you say "drops the common", the physical common wire is running through the preset button connections?
I'm having trouble getting my head around what happens when stops are down & then a normal piston is pressed. How is the stop rail disabled from sending midi info to enable stops to be moved on or off while playing on a normal piston without affecting the registration playing on that piston? (or doesn't this happen?). Hope this makes some sense LOL
Gary

Hi Gary,

No doubt Per will answer, but I have a similar setup. In my case, the piston triggers a relay whose contacts I adjusted to make and break in the proper sequence. Maybe there is a better way, but the above has worked for me for quite a while with no problem.

Rgds,
Ed

How does one make certain the General Cancel occurs before the common is broken & then restored?

The “Stop Rail Restore” has two contacts, one normally closed and one normally open, as mentioned. The sequence (break common- General Cancel- restore common) is by design of the contacts in the piston. When pressed half way, the common is broken, pressing further the normally open closes and fires a Gen Cancel.

I assume when you say "drops the common", the physical common wire is running through the preset button connections?

No, the common wire is the one to the Stop keys. The pistons (preset buttons) are not affected.

How is the stop rail disabled from sending midi info to enable stops to be moved on or off while playing on a normal piston without affecting the registration playing on that piston? (or doesn't this happen?)

I’m not sure what you mean here but the stop rail is never disabled. This is not like the original when a piston (preset) was pressed it took the stop rail out of business until the “Stop Rail” preset was selected. This is no longer the case, when a piston is pressed, MIDI status is sent to HW to trigger a HW combination. You can always add and subtract stops by manually moving the stop keys. Note that there is no preset function in the console, everything is handled by HW. Pistons only send MIDI Program Change status when pressed, no other function.

No, the common wire is the one to the Stop keys. The pistons (preset buttons) are not affected.

If the common wire doesn't pass thru the "Stop Rail" piston, how does a "break common" occur?

I’m not sure what you mean here but the stop rail is never disabled.

Doesn't this mean that when a real piston is pressed, with the stops that happen to be down at the time, if they are all then flicked off, any that happen to be part of the piston registration will not sound any more while playing on that piston? And any that are flicked off, but are not part of the piston reg., will have no affect? But any that are off & then turned on, will then be added to the reg.? And any that were down, but not part of the piston registration, if flicked off then on, will be added to the reg.?
Thanks for helping me attempt to "get my head" around this issue...greatly appreciated.
Gary

If the common wire doesn't pass thru the "Stop Rail" piston, how does a "break common" occur?

I was referring to the “normal” pistons.

Maybe a couple of examples will be of help. Suppose you have no stops at all selected on the stop rail. If you press piston 1 the combination that corresponds to this will be activated by HW(Comb #1)

Another example. Suppose you set up a registration using the stop rail. If later pressing piston 1 the Comb #1 will become active, COMPLETELY replacing the stop key setup and the result is exactly the same as in previous example.

In short, Hauptwerk doesn’t keep track of the stop key status and it doesn’t care how a stop is set on or off. By stop key (MIDI), mouse click, combination setting or computer keyboard.

Regarding your questions, the answer is yes to all.

Thanks Per
I can now see how to reset the stop rail by way of hardware wiring in the "Stop Rail" piston.
Does anyone know if/how easy it would be in HW, to "ignore" any Stop on or off signals for a division when a preset is in use for that division, then enable the checking again once the "Stop Rail" piston is hit.
Gary