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Latest CPU recommendations

Buying or building computers for Hauptwerk, recommendations, troubleshooting computer hardware issues.
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Joseph Wicks

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Latest CPU recommendations

PostFri Feb 11, 2022 8:11 am

Hi all,

I was wondering if the admins could help to clarify which CPUs are most recommended these days.

With a recent upgrade to HW7, I am encountering issues of CPU 100% usage and significant polyphony limitations. My system is rather old but it has stood remarkably well until now.

In the latest Prerequisites PDF for HW7, it mentions that high end Intel CPUs are recommended but doesn't talk much about AMD alternatives.

I would like to be able to upgrade to a system which is future proof and capable of handling the larger sample sets at the newest audio quality options available. I know this means a very large amount of RAM, and a high base clock speed per core on a CPU. The choice of CPUs is truly mind-boggling and it would super helpful to have some more specific recommendations from those in the know!

With thanks and best wishes,

Joseph
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mnailor

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostFri Feb 11, 2022 8:51 am

It's easier to get specs from an online computer store for PCs and Macs that you can actually order right now, then compare published performance benchmarks for their processors and expand your selection if none of those are fast enough. You can't compare the whole universe of processors. I start with Dell's online store to make sure I'm looking at PCs that are currently available to order. Apple, HP, or wherever you're comfortable with, just to narrow it down to a small list of CPUs.

Then compare CPU Mark and Thread Mark numbers for your list of CPUs here:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/CPU_mega_page.html

Future-proofing more than 3 - 4 years out is really expensive if not impossible. I like to pick a sampleset and say I have to be able to run at least that, with all the highest quality options, with headroom for a bigger load in the future.

I stress-tested my recent new PC using Nancy with 4 perspectives and all samples loaded, at full organ. The new i9-12900K handles that at HW 7 higher quality mode, 96k, 512 buffer, with some room to spare. It handles Caen Surround very easily.

That's about a 40,000 CPU Mark, 4000 Thread Mark processor. If you get an Intel or AMD around those numbers, you're good for a while on the heaviest current HW and sampleset demands. Yes, there probably will be fun new Hauptwerk options or samplesets in the next year or three that will make that inadequate, and I'll have to consider whether to turn off the new options or buy a faster PC.

There are server CPUs -- dual socket Xeon and AMD -- with twice that capacity, but the prices tend to be much higher than I'd be able to look at.

P.S. Clock speed and core count aren't good measures of CPU capacity by themselves. If you're comparing two nearly identical models, then those can tell you something, but otherwise not really. Performance on a known set of workloads is much more useful.
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mdyde

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostFri Feb 11, 2022 9:16 am

Hello Joseph,

[Topic moved here.]

Other people on this forum are probably better placed to make specific CPU model recommendations amongst the latest CPUs than I would be, and certainly so for AMD CPUs (which I haven't tried myself for quite a few years). Mark's advice above is excellent. If you have a rummage through recent-ish threads in this section of the forum (i.e. the 'computer hardware / specs' section), you'll find various topics from people who've tried particular models, e.g. Mark's thread with recent benchmarks here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19986

I'd certainly recommend looking amongst recently-released CPU models, since newer CPU generations usually out-perform previous generations by a significant margin, all else being equal.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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jkinkennon

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostFri Feb 11, 2022 10:16 am

To simplify things a bit, if I were to replace my three year old Intel i9 CPU I would look at a 12th Generation Intel i9 at a little over $600 or I saw a 12th Gen i7 at less than $400. Likely a new motherboard is needed, and other improvements get the cost of a self built PC to well over $1000 to $2000 with lots of memory and an SSD drive. I haven't priced off the shelf fully assembled PCs in a long time so I won't hazard a guess at that.

I'd suggest the i9 with at least 64GB of memory and a 2TB SSD. I'm not thinking of what is absolutely required right now but at purchasing a PC that will be good for 5 years minimum running challenging applications like HW. After that it will likely remain a great PC for general purpose use for many more years.
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mnailor

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostFri Feb 11, 2022 11:58 am

Over-simplifying the results from stress-testing only three processors with Caen and Nancy -- i9-12900K, i9-9900, and Ryzen 7 5700U laptop -- you need about 6 - 8 CPU Mark per voice of polyphony to run these organs really well at 96k in HW 7 higher or medium (HW 6 higher) audio quality.

To get 5000 polyphony under those (stress test) conditions, that means you need to shop in the 30000 - 40000 CPU Mark range.

If you don't beat up full organ like that in real life practicing (which I don't), you can expect up to 10000 polyphony from a processor in the 30000 - 40000 CPU Mark range. So you might be fine with anything over 20000 CPU Mark if Widor symphonies aren't your thing.

Thread Mark should also be high, not less than 2500 and preferably over 3000, for this kind of workload. So something with 64 cores but only 2000 Thread Marks might not be helpful. Single core speed has to be good no matter how many cores you pile on.

Your mileage will vary depending on tuning and even cooling for high TDP processors, and obviously, what you play and what audio quality you choose.
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Joseph Wicks

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSat Feb 12, 2022 6:17 am

Thanks all for this helpful advice! Feeling a lot more in-the-know now.

J
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larason2

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSat Feb 12, 2022 11:48 am

Yes, thanks MNailor! That is quite helpful. I think I'm going to buy one of the new Mac Minis with the M1Max, 64 gb in the future. It won't be as future proof as your windows systems, but I never play any sets with more than 2 channels, so it should be more than enough for my needs. If you plan on playing Nancy specifically, or any future sets along those lines, your recommendations make a lot of sense.
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mnailor

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSat Feb 12, 2022 12:12 pm

The M1 certainly tests as powerful enough for all but the most demanding samplesets and the highest audio options. And its single core speed beats most other processors out there. Have fun!
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RaymondList

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSat Feb 12, 2022 6:36 pm

larason2 wrote:Yes, thanks MNailor! I think I'm going to buy one of the new Mac Minis with the M1Max, 64 gb in the future.


There is an Apple event planned for March 8th. Could be the new Mac Mini M1 Max announcement.

As an aside, I wonder how the M1Pro/Max would stack up if it had a native Hauptwerk module to run instead of the Rosetta2 translated variety? Hmmmm.

Regards
Ray
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Ozykz

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostTue Aug 30, 2022 12:59 pm

The new AMD CPUs that were just announced support AVX-512. Will be interesting to see how they perform in Hauptwerk.
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abaymajr

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSun May 07, 2023 3:32 pm

mnailor wrote:Over-simplifying the results from stress-testing only three processors with Caen and Nancy -- i9-12900K, i9-9900, and Ryzen 7 5700U laptop -- you need about 6 - 8 CPU Mark per voice of polyphony to run these organs really well at 96k in HW 7 higher or medium (HW 6 higher) audio quality.

To get 5000 polyphony under those (stress test) conditions, that means you need to shop in the 30000 - 40000 CPU Mark range.

If you don't beat up full organ like that in real life practicing (which I don't), you can expect up to 10000 polyphony from a processor in the 30000 - 40000 CPU Mark range. So you might be fine with anything over 20000 CPU Mark if Widor symphonies aren't your thing.

Thread Mark should also be high, not less than 2500 and preferably over 3000, for this kind of workload. So something with 64 cores but only 2000 Thread Marks might not be helpful. Single core speed has to be good no matter how many cores you pile on.

Your mileage will vary depending on tuning and even cooling for high TDP processors, and obviously, what you play and what audio quality you choose.


I'm considering building a mini PC based on AMD Ryzen 7 7735HS or AMD Ryzen 9 6900HX CPUs, which achieve the following scores:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/51 ... -i9-12900K

If it confirms my suspicion that this miniPC, although not yet validated, accepts the 2 x 48 GB Corsair/Crucial SODIMM RAM kit, my reference target would be to load the 8 channels of the SP St. Martini Groningen sampleset with HW7 at its highest quality. Do you think I would have difficulty with this system?
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mnailor

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostSun May 07, 2023 4:17 pm

I'd say you can load Groningen (85 GB), and it should run okay on either of those processors using historically informed registrations.

At about 3400 Thread Mark and 25000 CPU Mark, you may have to set polyphony lower than 8000 voices, which SP recommends for that sampleset, to use HW 7 highest audio quality at 96k and/or a low latency buffer size. Just something to be aware of. You'd need to test and set the polyphony limit appropriately for the CPU.

That should only be a problem if you couple all the plenums together or try to draw a modern full organ -- things the organ probably wasn't built to handle gracefully anyway. If you need to do that (as a wind sag experiment for a documentary on herd animal noises), you could always drop one of the 4 mic perspectives temporarily by routing ranks to nowhere.

I don't have Groningen, so maybe somebody who does can give a better idea how it works on their CPU model.
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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostWed May 10, 2023 9:10 pm

mnailor wrote:I'd say you can load Groningen (85 GB), and it should run okay on either of those processors using historically informed registrations.

At about 3400 Thread Mark and 25000 CPU Mark, you may have to set polyphony lower than 8000 voices, which SP recommends for that sampleset, to use HW 7 highest audio quality at 96k and/or a low latency buffer size. Just something to be aware of. You'd need to test and set the polyphony limit appropriately for the CPU.

That should only be a problem if you couple all the plenums together or try to draw a modern full organ -- things the organ probably wasn't built to handle gracefully anyway. If you need to do that (as a wind sag experiment for a documentary on herd animal noises), you could always drop one of the 4 mic perspectives temporarily by routing ranks to nowhere.

I don't have Groningen, so maybe somebody who does can give a better idea how it works on their CPU model.


Thank you very much for your input. Also, it seems those 2 x 48GB DDR5 SODIMM kits work with some MiniPCs, second to a vendor/manufacturer has garanteed to me. One more question. As for sampleset loading time, considering that 25000 CPU Mark of the AMD Ryzen 7 7735HS, would it make any difference between a premium 7GB/s sequential reading NVME to another one of standard reading performance of 3.5GB/s?
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mdyde

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostThu May 11, 2023 3:51 am

Hello abaymajr,

Currently, when loading organs from modern NVMe SSDs, the CPU will be the performance bottleneck anyway (especially per-core CPU performance), so a faster NVMe SSD almost certainly won't load organs faster than a slower one (although an NVMe SSD may load organs faster than a SATA SSD). Hence in terms of performance it's unlikely to matter currently which NVMe drive you use.

In the medium term, we do hope to develop a new organ loading mechanism designed to take advantage of the performance of NVMe SSDs, so the relative performances of NVMe drive models may then be relevant.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Latest CPU recommendations

PostThu May 11, 2023 10:10 am

Can confirm that with my i9-12900K at over 4000 Thread Mark single core performance, loading large samplesets like Nancy and Billerbeck takes 2 - 3 minutes and is mainly bottlenecked by CPU speed, not waiting for I/O on the SSD that much. Moving cache to a slower external SSD at one time (for shuffling directories around) only made a small difference in load time, so a faster SSD won't be a great investment if that's the only purpose, while a higher Thread Mark processor does help both load times and run time performance.
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