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Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

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Romanos

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Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 8:36 am

Greetings all—
I'm curious what people would advise. My imac is now officially so old that I cannot update to current OS's and so certain software is no longer running properly (or at all). In short: it is no longer sufficient to be my daily driver at home. Because it is limited to 32gb ram (I believe it was the year after mine where OWC kits could push it to 64) I don't want to keep it as a dedicated HW computer, partly because of form-factor and partly because I've always felt limited with 32gb ram.

Now, we also need to update our laptops which are the same vintage. As much as I would looooooove to order one of the new base-model mac studio's with 64gb ram, it's $2600 and with an eye to the fact that at least one laptop needs immediate replacement too, I'm trying to be budget conscious. My wife has agreed to spending money on a dedicated HW computer with sufficient ram, because if we give my console its own computer, then we can get a more... "reasonable" daily driver. For ordinary tasks, we won't need computers with enormous amounts of ram.

Here's where I've landed:

For approximately the same cost, I can source either a 2018 mac mini (6 core i7 3.2hz) with a 1tb HD and 64gb ram, OR, a "trash can" mac pro with 1-2 tb HD and 128 gb ram, 12 core xeon 2.7hz.

I know that the mac pro is quite a bit older, but I've never been repulsed by its design, and they are powerful enough to update to the current macOS. My thought is that in either case, I will get myself all set up on the new machine and it will be a dedicated HW machine, so it's ok if it doesn't continue to update for a while. It can be a bit of a time-capsule, as it were, since I will even disconnect it from the internet.

I like the idea of the older mac pro just because I can get 128gb ram; by the same token, it's only 1066hz ram, and the single-core clock speed is slower than the intel mac mini.

Any advice or accounts of lived experience with either machine would be very appreciated. I know some people use the minis and like them. I was a *little* concerned that 6 cores wouldn't be enough to drive sets that nearly max out the ram though. Perhaps I'm wrong.
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mnailor

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 12:41 pm

It looks like you're looking at these two Macs (please correct if I found the wrong models):

https://everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_ ... specs.html

https://everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_ ... specs.html

Here are two comparisons, also with a modern M1 for scale:

https://everymac.com/ultimate-mac-compa ... Silicon001

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/In ... 2009vs4585

The single core (SC) performance of the old Xeon E5-2697v2 on the Mac Pro is very poor compared to the Mac Mini's i7-8700B. The Xeon's multicore performance, while slightly better than the i7, might not let you use 128 GB memory in a meaningful way, since modern huge samplesets have much larger CPU demands to go with the number of samples and memory use. (You're not going to run Nancy fully loaded at high quality on either machine.)

On balance, you may be better off with the i7 mini for useful performance and for continuing OS support. I can't comment on anything about using these machines since I'm not a Mac user.
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 1:55 pm

mnailor, your advice is very helpful. You were spot on with the models in question.

I agree about the longevity of the mini. I also didn't realize that the more modern 6 core intel was performing as well as the older 12 core xeon. It actually out-performs the xeon in certain tests with half the cores, and the others where it lags behind, it isn't all that far off in the grand scheme of things. That's my answer then, I suppose.
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larason2

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 2:07 pm

A lot of Hauptwerk users have bought the Intel Mac minis in the past and maxed out the RAM to 64 GB, and been happy with them. They may not run Nancy at full throttle, but they are still very good computers. I think you’ll be happy.
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Erzahler

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 4:59 pm

I have always used Mac Minis and now there is the new one soon to be released.
A bit more money needed to buy it but should be the solution.
Mac Studio
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostFri Mar 11, 2022 5:02 pm

Unfortunately, as I said in my original post, that is 1000-1500 more than I’d like to spend at present, since we need to buy two computers, not one. Otherwise I’d be absolutely thrilled to get one.
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostMon Mar 14, 2022 11:53 am

Well, I was able to find a 2018 mini with the 3.2ghz 6-core i7 processor and 64gb ram for $1100. Not quite where I hoped to land for a used computer, but still not even half the price if I were to spec one new, and still $200 cheaper than similar machines where I was outbid on eBay. I wasn't able to get as big of an internal drive as I wanted (only 512gb), so I'll get two Samsung SSDs and configure them in a raid array in the back. Still should be a notable upgrade from my 2013 iMac with only 32gb ram and a quad core processor. I'll finally be able to load some of my sets 24 bit uncompressed. It will also be nice to have a dedicated HW machine for a change, which I have never had in a decade of using HW.
Last edited by Romanos on Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mnailor

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostMon Mar 14, 2022 12:59 pm

I hope you enjoy the new machine.
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostMon Mar 28, 2022 8:07 pm

Well, I’m thinking of changing to one of the 2020 iMacs. The new mini seems to rather desire to overheat when I try to play larger sets (and stays hot for a good long while). I’m thinking a 5k iMac with 96gb ram might be better. It will be double the cost, but double the performance. I’m pained to stay intel, but I could get an 8 core i7 (3.8ghz) with the option for up to 128 go ram for cheaper than the studio.

Are other Mac mini users having overheating issues? This new (to me) machine was a clean install that only has hw on it, but it gets so hot I can’t stand to put my hand on the top for more than 2 seconds. See,s a sure fire way to fry the machine.
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larason2

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostTue Mar 29, 2022 7:35 am

I have a macbook air from around the same time period that used to overheat too. I even bought a cooling pad for it! As I have continued to update it, the problem went away, however. Is it updated to the most recent OS and update?
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostTue Mar 29, 2022 8:49 am

Yes. It was a complete clean install of the most up-to-date OS, with nothing else on it but HW.

If I load Freisach (only takes about 9gb), it seems to do OK, but if I load one of my larger samples that take up, say, 30-40gb ram, then it gets hot, and stays hot, even when it is "asleep". That's the part that alarmed me. Apparently just retaining that data in the ram was causing the machine to get hot and stay hot. I did an experiment yesterday where I loaded up the Rosales and then went upstairs for an hour. So literally all I did was load the set, and come back an hour later (and the computer had been asleep in the interval) and without even waking the computer up, it was hot to the touch. No bueno.

My setup has always been to run HW from my imac (with the incumbent machine being an old 2013 quad core i5 with 32gb ram). My main goal for this upgrade was to get more ram and have a dedicated machine that I could leave at the ready whenever I wanted to play. That's what made the mini a perfect format; it could just perch on my organ behind the music rack. But if this mini is going to be frying itself just to keep something loaded in the ram, it's not worth it. I think I'm just expecting too much from this machine. I had hoped (not unreasonably, I'd say) that it could cope— it is 6 core and has 64gb ram, so it's not exactly a slouch of a machine... but I think the form-factor is just too limiting. The thermal envelope is just too small.

I will sell the machine on ebay (there is nothing wrong with it; I think it's just not meant for heavy HW loads). Last night I ended up ordering a refurbished 2020 5k imac with an 8 core 3.8ghz i7. This is a much more powerful processor (higher clock and two more cores). I will also be able to load it with 96gb ram to give myself more overhead. Hopefully this solves my problem. I'll just slot it all back in the way I had it before. I suppose I have the benefit of that gorgeous display for other non-HW things anyway, so it's not all bad.

I confess I was rather hesitant to order yet another intel machine at this point, but the imac is a powerful in its own right and I believe it has a higher clock speed than the M1 chips, which helps in certain tasks, from what I've read around here. The price between this imac with diy ram upgrade and a new base-model studio with 64gb ram came out spitting distance, but I thought that for HW the older machine might fare better, and if it goes 'obsolete' in a few years due to everything switching to arm, it can still continue to chug along as a dedicated HW organ. I don't get the impression that a m1 native HW release is imminent anyway, and even then, they will continue to support both platforms for a while. Ultimately, I'll end up with more ram and squeak in $400 cheaper, minus whatever hit I take reselling this mini.
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larason2

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostTue Mar 29, 2022 12:24 pm

What you did is reasonable. I probably would have rigged up a Rube Goldberg machine style contraption using a desktop liquid cooling kit to liquid cool it!
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostTue Mar 29, 2022 12:33 pm

I did consider getting a large aluminum heat sink and mounting it to the top of the mini… But while that may help the computer deal with the heat a little better, it doesn’t solve the question of why it’s getting so hot to begin with, so I decided against it. If it was only getting hot when I had all the stops drawn and was playing fast passages, then maybe I would’ve tried that… But considering how hot it was just idling in sleep mode… I didn’t seem worth it.
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Romanos

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Re: Advice Needed: used mac mini or trash can pro

PostSat Apr 02, 2022 9:22 pm

Well, I have my new 8 core iMac with 96gb ram up and running and there’s no doubt it spins circles around the mini. The extra bump to 96gb ram is appreciated too.

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