It is currently Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:06 pm


Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

Speakers, amplifiers, headphones, multi-channel audio, reverb units, mixers, wiring, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

mesch

Member

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:59 pm

Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSun Jun 12, 2022 7:47 am

Hello,
this is my first post in this forum. I'm new to Hauptwerk and I already use Hauptwerk with headphones. Now I would like to upgrade my organ with a multichannel setup. I have read a lot but did not yet come to an answer to the following questions:
1. What is the recommended lower cut-off frequency of the speakers? Small speakers lack the bass foundation (or at least a basic sound foundation in the lower tones). A single subwoofer alone will hardly be able to compensate for this lack. In addition, it will hardly be possible to achieve a satisfactory sound when a sub has to reproduce a 32' and still a large part of the low tones from all ranks at the same time. At what tone-depth do small speakers need to go at least? Lower cutoff frequency 48Hz ok? Or at least 38Hz?
2. Does it make any sense to use 2 large floorstanding speakers (front 1 stereo) in addition to smaller speakers (front 2, front 3 stereo and rear stereo)? Since this would result in non-identical speakers, sound may not be as desired?
3. The distance from the rear speakers is about 2,5m (~8.2ft). The typically recommended speakers are near-field monitors like the Genelec 8020 or Behringer B2031A. The recommended distance from these speakers is around 1,5m (5ft). As far as I understand, at larger distances the sound somehow deteriorates. Do you nevertheless recommend such speakers for my setup? I also considered other speakers from a company which is very famous in Germany, which are sold as some kind of active Hifi speakers "Nubert nuPro X-3000 RC" with high linearity and even an acceptable/decent off-axis linearity, see https://www.nubert.de/downloads/test-2021-02--nupro-x-3000--nusub-xw-700--stereo.pdf Unfortunately they are double in price compared to the normal Genelec or Behringer speakers mentioned above which is a problem…
4. Would a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (3rd Gen) USB interface be ok for a 10 channel setup (3 pair of fronts, 1 rear, 1 sub)? I know that people typically recommend the Motu 16A, however this is rather expensive...

What is your opinion on that?

Thank you, I appreciate your feedback!
Offline

larason2

Member

  • Posts: 545
  • Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSun Jun 12, 2022 5:27 pm

I'm sure there are going to be a lot of replies!

1 So, to start with, as far as I know there is no accepted cut off for a sub woofer. The truth is most speakers will be able to reproduce a tone that is recognizable as a 32' tone even if you can't actually get a wave that long in your house. Adding a subwoofer makes the bass more present in the mix, but it's not necessary. I have 2 large studio monitors (with a 12 inch driver each), and they do the job well.
2 -If you are dividing the sound from one division into more than one speaker using the "cyclic within octaves" routing, then you want all the speakers to be identical, otherwise it probably doesn't matter. You probably don't need floor standing speakers, you can use other types and put them on a stand, or just put them on the floor. It depends how you want it to sound.
3 I wouldn't worry about the distance from the speakers. Actually, for organ music usually some mixing in the air is desirable. The speakers tend to be pretty powerful, so being too close would be a problem in my opinion. My speakers are actually not even orientated pointing towards me, and I think it is better that way. Basically all the speakers you mention would probably be fine, though as always I recommend you audition them before buying, or buy them with a flexible return policy.
4 The Focusrite would be fine. For more money, you do get better quality of a unit, sound and connection with the Motu, but I used an inexpensive UR22 for years and it was fine. Yet, any interface can give you problems. No matter what, you have to optimize your system to work with it and troubleshoot any audio glitches you find.
Offline

mnailor

Member

  • Posts: 1190
  • Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:57 pm
  • Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSun Jun 12, 2022 6:57 pm

1. I use a mix of four speaker types (in different bus groups of 4 or 8 speakers of the same type), and the lowest frequency they can play audibly varies from about 30 to 60 Hz. I set the subwoofer to start its high cutoff slope at 50 Hz, at 12 dB/octave, to give some bass support to the smallest speakers. I have to reduce the bass slightly on the biggest speakers to compensate for the sub's duplicating part of their range. All my speakers have some form of bass and treble level control or EQ, so this isn't hard to do.

One good sub is enough unless you're filling a church or hall.

3. My distance goes from 3' for the small speakers up to 10' for the largest. Walking around the room during MIDI playback, there's still a lot of definition over 10' away from the small speakers with ribbon tweeters, which are supposed to have a short, narrow range. The ones at 10' from the bench are midfield monitors, not nearfield.
Offline

mesch

Member

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:59 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jun 13, 2022 3:17 pm

Thanks for the answers.
The Focusrite would be fine. For more money, you do get better quality of a unit
: How noticable is the difference in sound quality? Is the sound more clear, distinct?

Basically all the speakers you mention would probably be fine
: This somehow sounds to me like speaker quality is not of utmost importance? What in your opinion is the most critical component on which one should invest money when setting up a new Hauptwerk installation?
Offline

larason2

Member

  • Posts: 545
  • Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jun 13, 2022 6:38 pm

For the first question, the difference is pretty subtle. I upgraded from a Steinberg UR22 to a Motu 24A0, and I found the sound was a bit more detailed, but otherwise both were pretty close to the same quality. The main reason it's recommended you get a professional level box like those is the lower latency and a good quality DAC.

For the second question, I agree that speaker quality isn't of the utmost importance, but to a point. Once you get to the Behringer 2031A kind of level and up, then it really doesn't matter. Basically you need something that is pretty flat, and has pretty good fidelity, and you need quite a lot of power and a fair bit of dynamic range for those stops that may have been sampled pretty quiet. Especially if you have lots of outputs, it's better to get 2 Behringer 2031A's than to buy one monitor that is twice as expensive. You may be able to find monitors that are slightly cheaper than the Behringer 2031A's that are acceptable, but the less money you go, the harder it is to find the right characteristics. Note though that if you're only using small organs that were sample loud, it probably doesn't matter as much, a cheaper monitor may do. But if you are using an organ that is 3 manuals, 50 stops +, you'll want something at least like the Behringer. It really is in the sweet spot for price vs. power.
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 618
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jun 13, 2022 8:36 pm

mesch wrote:"Basically all the speakers you mention would probably be fine." This somehow sounds to me like speaker quality is not of utmost importance? What in your opinion is the most critical component on which one should invest money when setting up a new Hauptwerk installation?

Well back in the Hi-Fi days, some would argue to upgrade your sound source (turntable, needle, receiver). Others would focus on the output (receiver & speakers).
For Hauptwerk, I would start with the audio interface as suggested. If you have only been using the computer's headphone jack, you will hear more clarity, especially where the harmonic content is complex. Noticeable improvements are easily heard in percussion voices (if applicable). The A/D/A circuitry on a MOTB is usually limited to a single chip so MP3 or Youtube sound is sufficient. With an audio interface you have a professional or 'pro-sumer' grade appliance dedicated to the digital/analog reproduction! You also get reduced latency and sometimes an increase of polyphony at higher (48Hz or 96Hz) bit rates.

Danny B.
Offline
User avatar

tf11972

Member

  • Posts: 300
  • Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:33 pm
  • Location: Bavaria, Germany

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostWed Jun 15, 2022 4:14 pm

I also recommend the Focusrite mentioned. The differences between the interfaces lie less in the playback- than in the recording quality. The more expensive ones have lower noise microphone amplifiers, but this doesn't really matter in post-processing because the samples are denoised anyway. In any case, I have achieved very good results with Gen1 interfaces when sampling.
I don't know the Behringer monitors, but the question is whether you should wait a little longer and then invest in higher-quality ones. I myself use the predecessors of the aforementioned X-3000 (A-300) in the front, supported by two subwoofers, and two full-range monitors as rears (X-8000). All together they sound really great:

https://forestpipes.de/?page_id=214
Best regards
Thomas

Forestpipes - Virtual Pipe Organs
https://forestpipes.de
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 618
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostThu Jun 16, 2022 10:26 am

One other thing to add, rear speakers for surround ranks don't have to be as high of quality as the front (needed for high fidelity) speakers. They provide the ambience of the reflective sound. Some good quality book shelf speakers like the Polk Tsi200 would work great.

The Behringer 2031A has become the defacto HW studio monitor since they offer a great balance of sound and cost. They have been around awhile so if you want to add more later on, good chance you would still be able to purchase them. Other companies often retire or improve their models which makes it difficult to match up an additional pair later on if you decide to expand. Also the 2031A is a design clone of the Genelec 1031A. Nothing wrong with that when it comes to sound/price bargain!
http://noaudiophile.com/Behringer_Truth_B2031A/

Danny B.
Last edited by magnaton on Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

mesch

Member

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:59 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 5:30 am

Thank you! Having either the choice of using 6 front speakers like Yamaha HS8 or 8 front speakers like the smaller HS7. What is recommended?

Perhaps with the larger speakers the presence is better, but with the smaller ones the immersion is better?

Irrespective of that, my speakers will have to be placed close to the wall and even one pair in the room corner. Might this be a problem with the bass procuded by the large HS8 speakers such that the HS7 may be more recommended anyhow?
HS7: 55 HZ - 24 KHZ (-3 dB), 43 Hz bis 30 kHz (-10 dB)
HS8: 47 Hz – 24 kHz (-3 dB), 38 Hz – 30zkHz (-10 dB)

Thank you!
Offline

josq

Member

  • Posts: 891
  • Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:11 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 8:10 am

I find audiosciencereview a very useful source for selection of components.

Here is a review of the HS7:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... tor.19761/

Genelec 8030 is a favorite (I have the smaller 8020, but they distort when playing very loudly):
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... iew.14795/

Adam T5V seems to be an excellent budget choice:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... tor.18122/

A proper setup of the speakers is crucial, especially for the front channels.
Direct sound is better than reflected sound, and on-axis better than off-axis, and left&right speaker should behave similarly. So symmetrical setup in an equilateral triangle with your listening position, ideally also symmetric from walls. Tweeters should point to the ears. Typical listening distance 80-120cm for near-field speakers

(Floorstanders have a longer recommended listening distance, therefore they typically are not feasible as front speakers because most people would like to place their organ console against a wall).

Speakers should be situated slightly (but not too much) above ear height, because this mimicks the real situation that the organ case in a high position.
Last edited by josq on Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

larason2

Member

  • Posts: 545
  • Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostSat Jun 18, 2022 12:16 pm

I would get 8 HS7's, and sent the front channels to them in the "cyclic within octaves" routing scheme. I feel this will significantly increase the clarity over 6 HS8's, whereas once you have so many speakers power usually isn't a problem. Presence and immersion will probably be similar for both options. For those kinds of monitors, going up in price usually just gives you more bass, whereas if you have multiple monitors per channel with a subwoofer, that extra bass isn't going to do much. However, adding a fourth monitor per channel is usually thought of as a step up in clarity - particularly if you like playing music with suspensions or seventh chords (fifteenths, elevenths, etc.).
Offline

mesch

Member

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:59 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 8:49 am

Hello,
in the meantime I got my speakers. 8 HS7 for the front and 2 HS7 for the rear and 1 sub (going down to 19 Hz at -3dB :) )

As soundcard I use a USB connected Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen which has 10 symmertric line outs. For the sub I use the digital S/PDIF out which connects to a very cheap digital to analogue converter (~20 Euros). The sub is connected to the DA-converter via cinch (I doubt that for the rare occasions where the sub realy has to jump in any difference in sound quality between a 200€ and a 20€ DA converter is audible).

I like the Focusrite because it's simple to setup and very affordable. In case I ever want to extend the system (which I doubt) I could use the ADAT out to connect another device.

One thought that came to my mind. Playing in tutti really is an amazing feeling. The sound surrounds me and immerses me. What I find unpleasant in tutti, however, is the force with which the sounds hit my ears. All speakers are aimed directly at me, so it is ensured that an ideal sound dispersion (especially with regard to the high frequencies) is guaranteed. On the one hand, I have an optimal sound quality. On the other hand, such a setup is exactly not what you experience with a real pipe organ. Instead of being hit directly by sound waves with the force of many loudspeakers, the listener in the church experiences the sound emission much more indirectly and thus more pleasantly.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what a compromise might look like here? To direct all loudspeakers wildly into the room will not be a solution.
Offline

larason2

Member

  • Posts: 545
  • Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 9:07 am

Glad you took my advice! You don’t have to direct the speakers wildly into the room, but they should not all be directed toward you, and the volume is probably too high. A small amount of outward direction is ideal, with all the speakers facing a different direction. Experiment with direction and volume until it sounds right.
Offline

mnailor

Member

  • Posts: 1190
  • Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:57 pm
  • Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 10:06 am

Reduce the gains on the speakers so they aren't at max but are all at the same level, 1/2 or 1/3 for example, to compensate for having 5 pairs of speakers that were designed to fill a small room with 1 pair. Less chance of distortion.

Adjust the trim dB on each organ in Hauptwerk until it sounds full, but not forced or distorted, at tutti.
Offline

neptune

Member

  • Posts: 13
  • Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:47 pm

Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 10:15 am

Of the speakers recommended in this thread, the Adam's would have been my choice. The Yamaha's are great for studio listening but the Adam's with the ribbon tweeter will have far less ear fatigue which is very important when it comes to "shrill" mixtures etc in organ music.

Anyway, I agree with the advice of not aiming them 100% directly at your ears, even though (again, in Studios and home theatre) this is often the best approach. However, aiming them in random directions is also wrong, we don't live in cathedrals and bouncing sound all around will give you dead frequencies (sound is missing) or live frequencies (amplified where you don't want it) and will also have an "unbalanced" effect where some sounds are more noticeable than others. In addition, we don't need to try and create that cathedral sound with speakers because the pipes/sounds have already been recorded with that. What we need is clear, accurate playback and reproduction of the sound, which means the speakers should still be pointed mostly in your direction using the "v" or equilateral triangle - just point them out a bit from that.

I have my speakers sitting on a shelf at least a foot or more above ear height, and that solves two problems: the sound is less "hitting my ear drums" and also gives more of that pipe organ feeling coming from high above. The tweeters have enough vertical dispersion to still sound clear and full.
Next

Return to Amplification

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests