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Both Stereo and Surround?

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waltk

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Both Stereo and Surround?

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 1:49 pm

I'm currently set up with Hauptwerk 6 and an eight-channel system in four stereo sets (three mid/upper and one subwoofer). This lets me (with the Mount Carmel Skinner) route the Swell to left, Choir to right, and Great and Pedal to center, with the sub doing what subs do.

I'm using a Zoom UAC-8 as my MIDI and Audio module.

I'd like to try setting up some of my sample set as surround while leaving some as I've set the Mount Carmel, but I only see the stereo pairs in the mixer set up screens. I see individual channels in the Audio Device set up, but I don't see a way to say "channels 1 and 6 are back, channels 2 and 5 are mid, and channels 3 and 4 are close". I only see the association I made when I set up as "channels 1 and 2 are Choir, channels 3 and 4 are Great, and channels 5 and 6 are Swell [and channels 7 and 8 are subs]"

There is obviously something I'm not seeing. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Walt Knowles
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magnaton

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm

waltk wrote:I'd like to try setting up some of my sample set as surround while leaving some as I've set the Mount Carmel, but I only see the stereo pairs in the mixer set up screens.

Hi Walt

I guessing one of your stereo pairs is actually behind the console? Your details don't state that. Since you have individual speaker pairs assigned to various organ divisions, you can simply repurpose them so say the Choir channels can become "Close", Great becomes "Near", etc. The audio presets are somewhat limited when it comes to actual rank routing. Its basically designed allow you to have say a different reverb setting for one preset, no reverb for another, and maybe no main outputs assigned at all except for the headphone channels.

Danny B.
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mnailor

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostWed Nov 30, 2022 8:19 pm

In General settings | Audio devices and channels, you can remap your output channels in a different order so you can make primary buses for your various stereo pairs. Primary buses can point to the same channel, so you can impose different pairs that overlap.

Then set up additional bus groups containing the new primary buses for surround. Groups can contain overlapping primary buses (stereo pairs).

(Personally, I'd just connect the speakers in center-to-outside order on the audio interface, assign 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 as primary buses, then set up bus groups for each interpretation of how to use them. But that wasn't what you asked.)
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mdyde

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostThu Dec 01, 2022 4:43 am

Hello Walt,

To add to others' replies:

When selecting stereo device channels for any given bus, the Audio Mixer screen requires that the *logical* device channel numbers (1-128) of the left and right stereo channels are consecutive (since it makes the screen more convenient to use, and since it's very uncommon for anyone to need non-consecutive channels).

However, as Mark mentioned, you can remap logical channels to different physical device channels via the "General settings | Audio device and channels" screen, and on that screen you can also remap more than one logical channel to the same device channel. For example, you could remap logical channels 11 and 12 to device channels 1 and 6 (whilst still retaining the existing logical -> device mappings 1->1 and 6->6). Especially if you do that, I'd recommend giving the logical channels meaningful names that reflect the speakers they use. For example, you could name logical channels 11 and 12 something like "Outer speaker pair: L" and "Outer speaker pair: R" respectively.

My inclination would be then to keep one mixer preset configured solely for your existing routing, and keep the relevant organs (e.g. Mount Carmel) set to use that preset, and then configure a different mixer preset (mixer buses and groups) for your new routing, so that you could simply point those other organs to that preset. That avoids any confusion that might arise by trying to do everything within a single mixer preset.

(As an aside, you may find configuring multiple audio routings/presets clearer and more convenient in Hauptwerk v7 than it was in v6, especially since in v7 the buses and groups are organised within expandable nodes for their mixer presets.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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waltk

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C and C# -- where do they come from

PostSun Dec 11, 2022 12:27 am

I've been working through the audio paths in Hauptwerk VI with the goal of setting up some organs (like the Mt. Carmel Skinner) as multiple stereo pairs:
Code: Select all
Speakers: 1   2         3 4       5  6         7  8
           Subwoofer   Choir     Great        Swell     


and some (like Minesterol ) as surround:
Code: Select all
Speakers    1  2           3           4           5             6            7           8
          Subwoofer    far left      mid left  near left   near right    mid right    far right
                       surround          pedal     main  -------organ     pedal     surround


Everything works like a charm in the multiple stereo pairs, and in the surround with a monitor channel (headphones and stereo recording), the monitor works fine, but I'm only getting C# side output, no C side output, In normal stereo pairs. Somewhere in my fiddling about I've lost the C side of all the chests. I'd assume that it's just the logical left channel output of a rank.

For what it's worth, I'm running a Zoom UAC-8 as my DAC, and it takes 10 stereo pairs of (virtual, from the computer) inputs, and let's me mix them to stereo main out and 4 stereo pairs (10 outputs/5 stereo pairs)

The way I'm thinking is that there should be somewhere where I am not connecting to the (mono) left channel of all my ranks (except in my stereo main out, where it seems to make it).

So, unless I'm completely understanding something, what I want to do is to send either stereo channel of any rank (or group of ranks) to any of the 10 virtual inputs on the DAC, rather than a stereo rank to the stereo pairs on the DAC.

Does that make sense, or am I guilty of wrong thinking?

Thanks,
Walt Knowles
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mdyde

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Re: C and C# -- where do they come from

PostSun Dec 11, 2022 5:09 am

Hello Walt,

Do you mean that everything is working how you'd like it to be with the 'stereo' organs (e.g. Mt. Carmel):

Code: Select all
Speakers: 1   2         3 4       5  6         7  8
           Subwoofer   Choir     Great        Swell


... but not when you try to configure surround organs in the second way you describe (e.g. Minesterol)?:

Code: Select all
Speakers    1  2           3           4           5             6            7           8
          Subwoofer    far left      mid left  near left   near right    mid right    far right
                       surround          pedal     main  -------organ     pedal     surround


Are you using a different mixer preset for the latter?

In your second routing, do you mean that you want all non-surround perspectives (e.g. 'organ' and 'main') to be routed to audio device outputs 5+6, except for those of the Pedal division, for which you want the non-surround perspectives to be routed to device outputs 4+7?

Note also that on the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen, for the "Audio output device channels: Channels" setting you need to select one of the 'Stereo'-prefixed entries (not 'Mono') in order to hear any rank routed to it in stereo. For stereo output pairs, that setting only allows you to select consecutive logical channel numbers, but you can remap logical-to-physical device channel numbers if needed as discussed on your previous topic:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=20628

mdyde wrote:When selecting stereo device channels for any given bus, the Audio Mixer screen requires that the *logical* device channel numbers (1-128) of the left and right stereo channels are consecutive (since it makes the screen more convenient to use, and since it's very uncommon for anyone to need non-consecutive channels).

However, as Mark mentioned, you can remap logical channels to different physical device channels via the "General settings | Audio device and channels" screen, and on that screen you can also remap more than one logical channel to the same device channel. For example, you could remap logical channels 11 and 12 to device channels 1 and 6 (whilst still retaining the existing logical -> device mappings 1->1 and 6->6). Especially if you do that, I'd recommend giving the logical channels meaningful names that reflect the speakers they use. For example, you could name logical channels 11 and 12 something like "Outer speaker pair: L" and "Outer speaker pair: R" respectively.

My inclination would be then to keep one mixer preset configured solely for your existing routing, and keep the relevant organs (e.g. Mount Carmel) set to use that preset, and then configure a different mixer preset (mixer buses and groups) for your new routing, so that you could simply point those other organs to that preset. That avoids any confusion that might arise by trying to do everything within a single mixer preset.

(As an aside, you may find configuring multiple audio routings/presets clearer and more convenient in Hauptwerk v7 than it was in v6, especially since in v7 the buses and groups are organised within expandable nodes for their mixer presets.)


[I'll merge this topic with that one once you've had a chance to spot this reply, since I think it's effectively a continuation of it.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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waltk

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Re: C and C# -- where do they come from

PostSun Dec 11, 2022 3:29 pm

Martin,
This is a continuation of my previous thread, except that I now understand the presenting problem (I wasn't groking that the UAC-8 is essentially a 10x10 mixer and I didn't have it set up to route inputs to outputs. When I set up Hauptwerk IV, I bumped into a working configuration by dumb luck, and now I'm trying to actually understand what I'm doing!

Hello Walt,

Do you mean that everything is working how you'd like it to be with the 'stereo' organs (e.g. Mt. Carmel):

... but not when you try to configure surround organs in the second way you describe (e.g. Minesterol)?:

Yes
Are you using a different mixer preset for the latter?

No. My goal in configuration is to be able to load a stereo organ (Mt Carmel) and have it come out "in chambers", and then hit the load button on a surround organ (Minesterol) and have it come out in surround
In your second routing, do you mean that you want all non-surround perspectives (e.g. 'organ' and 'main') to be routed to audio device outputs 5+6, except for those of the Pedal division, for which you want the non-surround perspectives to be routed to device outputs 4+7?

The sound image goal is to have the "close" sound for the manuals to come out the center channels (5+6), the "close" sound of the pedal towers to come out to the side of them (4+7), and (in Minesterol which has only one surround stereo pair of samples), the reverberant field to come out the channels that are behind the console (3+8), and the <120 Hz to come out the subwoofers (1+2). FWIW, I've set up the subwoofers as their own perspective which I mix in on a rank-by-rank basis as a sort of highly customized crossover.

Note also that on the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen, for the "Audio output device channels: Channels" setting you need to select one of the 'Stereo'-prefixed entries (not 'Mono') in order to hear any rank routed to it in stereo. For stereo output pairs, that setting only allows you to select consecutive logical channel numbers, but you can remap logical-to-physical device channel numbers if needed as discussed on your previous topic:

I got the logical remapping bit--that's what made most of the penny drop, thanks! On the "Audio Device and Channels" what I see are 20 [mono] device channels that I can reorder and rename, but this is for all organs/presets/perspectives, right?

I have reorganized these as
    1 (sub left)
    2 (sub right)
    3 (left pair left)
    4 (left pair right)
    5 (center pair left)
    6 (center pair right)
    7 (right pair left)
    8 (right pair right)
    9 (mid pair left---this is the same physical output as # 4)
    10 (mid pair right -- #7)
    11 (hall pair left -- #3)
    12 (hall pair right -- #8)

I'm pretty sure that I got this one to work (I've been moving things about trying to build a mental model), by configuring the UAC-8 mixer to route:
    1+2 -> UAC 1+2 (subs)
    3+4 -> UAC 3+4 (choir)
    11 panned L -> (left channel choir) [hall L]
    9 panned R -> (right channel choir) [mid L]
    5+6 -> UAC 5+6 (great/center)
    7+8 -> UAC 7+8 (swell)
    10 panned L -> (left channel swell) [mid R]
    12 panned R -> (right channel swell) [hall R]

And at this point, I seem to have lost the "C" side of the chests, and it even seems that I may be down to every third or fourth note on some ranks.

In trying to write this out, I've come up with another potential way to get this, but I'm not sure it isn't just one of the variations that didn't work before.

Here's my mental model of the Menesterol 8' Montre:
Code: Select all
                       ---- distance mic --- left channel rear ---\
                      /                                            \
C side of the chests / --- left channel close \                     \
                                               +---- close pair out  +------rear pair out
C# side of the chest \ -- right channel close /                     /
                      \                                            /
                       ---- distance mic --- right channel rear ---/


From that mental picture, it would seem that there would be a spot to feed the (mono) left channel close to the left channel of one of the stereo pairs on the UAC mixer, but I don't seem to be able to find that spot. In my set up, it's behaving like the left channel (produced by panning the channel in the Audio Mixer dialog to -100) doesn't want to be plugged into a right channel -- or something like that?
My inclination would be then to keep one mixer preset configured solely for your existing routing, and keep the relevant organs (e.g. Mount Carmel) set to use that preset, and then configure a different mixer preset (mixer buses and groups) for your new routing, so that you could simply point those other organs to that preset. That avoids any confusion that might arise by trying to do everything within a single mixer preset.

Thanks. I think I just realized that the mixer preset is tied to the organ, rather than independent. That will probably make things easier.
(As an aside, you may find configuring multiple audio routings/presets clearer and more convenient in Hauptwerk v7 than it was in v6, especially since in v7 the buses and groups are organised within expandable nodes for their mixer presets.)

I wouldn't be surprised. I'll put it on my Christmas list.

Thanks so much for your help. It feels really close.
Walt
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mdyde

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostMon Dec 12, 2022 7:38 am

Thanks, Walt.

Here's one example way (avoiding using multiple mixer presets for simplicty) that you could configure it all:

- If you do plan to upgrade to v7 then it would be ideal to do that first, since it will make it clearer to set up.

- The following assumes all-default audio routing settings in Hauptwerk, so to avoid any confusion you might want to use "General settings | General configuration wizard" with just the "Reset general audio routing settings ..." option ticked.

- I don't have experience using a Zoom UAC interface, but in your UAC's mixer application, I would reset all mappings to defaults (with no panning or effects applied) so that (for example):
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 1 -> UAC physical output channel 1.
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 2 -> UAC physical output channel 2.
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 3 -> UAC physical output channel 3.
...
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 8 -> UAC physical output channel 8.
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 9 -> nothing (no physical UAC output).
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 10 -> nothing (no physical UAC output).
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 11 -> nothing (no physical UAC output).
...
----------- UAC virtual/computer channel 20 -> nothing (no physical UAC output).

- In Hauptwerk, on the "General settings | Audio device and channels" screen:
----------- Logical output channel 001: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 1. Name="Subwoofer L".
----------- Logical output channel 002: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 2. Name="Subwoofer L".
----------- Logical output channel 003: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 3. Name="Left pair L".
----------- Logical output channel 004: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 4. Name="Left pair R".
----------- Logical output channel 005: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 5. Name="Centre pair L".
----------- Logical output channel 006: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 6. Name="Centre pair R".
----------- Logical output channel 007: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 7. Name="Right pair L".
----------- Logical output channel 008: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 8. Name="Right pair R".
----------- Logical output channel 009: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 4. Name="Mid pair L".
----------- Logical output channel 010: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 7. Name="Mid pair R".
----------- Logical output channel 011: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 3. Name="Outer pair L".
----------- Logical output channel 012: Device channel=UAC virtual/computer channel 8. Name="Outer pair R".

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer" screen [all within mixer preset 1]:

------ Master mix bus 1 (main/recording):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = <none>

------ Master mix bus 3 (sub-woofer):
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 1+2 (subwoofer L+R).
[All primary buses are configured by default to send to this master mix bus, so by default it will receive a mix of everything.]

------ Primary bus 20:
----------- Name = "Left speaker pair".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 3+4 (left pair L+R).

------ Primary bus 21:
----------- Name = "Centre speaker pair".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 5+6 (centre pair L+R).

------ Primary bus 22:
----------- Name = "Right speaker pair".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 7+8 (right pair L+R).

------ Primary bus 23:
----------- Name = "Mid speaker pair".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 9+10 (mid pair L+R).

------ Primary bus 24:
----------- Name = "Outer speaker pair".
----------- Audio output device channels: Channels = Stereo: 11+12 (outer pair L+R).

- On the "General settings | Audio mixer bus groups" screen [all within mixer preset 1]:

------ Group 20:
----------- Name = "Left speaker pair".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 20.

------ Group 21:
----------- Name = "Centre speaker pair".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 21.

------ Group 22:
----------- Name = "Right speaker pair".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 22.

------ Group 23:
----------- Name = "Mid speaker pair".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 23.

------ Group 24:
----------- Name = "Outer speaker pair".
----------- Buses ticked (and no others): 24.

- Now load the Mt. Carmel organ, ensure that its mixer preset is still set to '1', then go to the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen and route the ranks as follows:

------ All Choir ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 20 ("Left speaker pair").

------ All Great ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 21 ("Centre speaker pair").

------ All Swell ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 22 ("Right speaker pair").

------ All other ranks (e.g. noises):
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = <whichever of groups 20-24 you prefer>.

- Now load the Minesterol organ, ensure that its mixer preset is still set to '1', then go to the "Organ settings | Rank routing ..." screen and route the ranks as follows:

------ All surround/rear ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 24 ("Outer speaker pair").

------ All non-surround/front Pedal ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 23 ("Mid speaker pair").

------ All non-surround/front non-Pedal ranks:
----------- Rank output perspective 1: Destination mixer bus group[ = 21 ("Centre speaker pair").
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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waltk

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostTue Dec 13, 2022 1:48 pm

Martin,
Thanks for this. With a little fiddling with the UAC-8 outputs, it works as expected. I upgraded to VII at your suggestion, but I think the key was totally resetting the audio system. The path from IV to VI, and exploratory "futzing about" probably left a setting (that I sure looked for) that caused the wierdness with C/C#.

Thanks again,
Walt
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mdyde

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Re: Both Stereo and Surround?

PostTue Dec 13, 2022 2:07 pm

Excellent. Thanks very much, Walt. You're very welcome.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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