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Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostMon Mar 28, 2016 2:53 pm

magnaton wrote:Hi Drew:

I've been following this tread with interest. Thanks for keeping us updated and sharing your designs. I feel these new smaller individual speakers will win with HW for your sanctuary install vs the TLAH arrays. Simply put, having more channels to disperse the sound enhances the realism vs just 2 (or 4 channels) channels with an array of multiple speakers.

There has been previous discussions on the merits of stereo playback vs mono; the latter being able to yield more individual channels but since most samples are recorded in stereo they sound better played back in stereo. This has been my experience as well , however here is a case where the mono argument can have merit albeit with 72 channels! I think this this is a very clever and great way to hide speakers in a living area:

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10333&p=76037

Back to the stereo design, going multi-channel stereo you 'loose' half of your channels for distribution. Forgive me if you know this already. Thus 10 speakers (10 audio channels) will yield 5 stereo channels to work with. But even with just 5 stereo channels, you can experiment with different methods: notes dispersed via an multi-channel algorithm, divisional separation (Choir Great, Swell), selected ranks assigned to a specific audio group. Maybe a combination of the 2? The take away is you'll have plenty of options to achieve a glorious sound. Oh yes lets not forget speaker placement; some angled, some straight, some elevated, again more options to further tweak your sound.

Sorry I know I'm jumping the gun here as you are still in the speaker design phase but wanted to put this out there anyway :-)

Danny B.


Thank you for the input.

The idea for the TLAH Line arrays was to actually do multiples of those as well, not just two. The idea was that I would build 12-20 pairs of those. My issue with them is that they are really big and hard to hide. Regardless if it's the line arrays, or the other speaker designs (or combinations of them all, as I suspect it will eventually be in the end), there will be absolutely as many discrete audio channels as I can fit into the space they are going in. So, I have plenty of room to work, so after I finish building all the designs that interest me, and get the experimentation out of the way, I will drag them all into the sanctuary and set them all up for side-by-side comparisons in the sanctuary. I have my sneaky suspicions already, as to which one(s) I think are going to fit the best.

The cost of building these is minimal when compared to purchasing all of these individually, just to do side-by-side comparisons.

Please, encourage others to participate in the conversation if they are so inclined - input is always carefully considered.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 10:07 am

For the moment, I am passing up the custom speaker previously shared and working instead on this Nelson Pass BOFU TL design:


I decided to try this out first since it is: a.) very easy to build b.) very inexpensive.

I am making a slight modification to the original design by adding a piezo horn, as it was originally intended to only utilize a single full-range driver. The horn should give it a nice clean, crisp attack and front end, as well as give it some nice high-end sizzle.

I am also using MDF on these as well, whereas everything I've built in this thread up until this point has been made from 3/4" Birch plywood, (except the TubaHT which was 1/2" plywood).

More to come later.

(On a separate note, the little Fostex enclosures that I built earlier in the thread are great little all-around speakers for home use. They do VERY well in solo/acoustic recordings. Not the best for big, full, powerful organ music, but speakers of that ilk are hard to come by.)
Last edited by dw154515 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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organtechnology

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 11:26 am

In the spirit of open conversation I have some thoughts on the frequency response of the combined speakers.

I am wondering why you are going to the trouble of building speakers that have the capability of producing sounds below the top end of the subwoofer?

If you consider the speaker/subwoofer(s) as one analog electric to acoustic transducer, should not the objective be to produce a smooth SPL curve across the audio spectrum needed by the Hauptwerk/sample set combination?

If the subwoofer is rated 16Hz to 100Hz why use a speaker that goes from 32Hz to 20 kHz? Why not match the high end of the sub roll off the the bottom of the speaker such that the combination of subs and speakers produces no peaks or valleys on the audio sweep from 16Hz to 20kHz under anechoic conditions?

It appears that smaller, less expensive speaker enclosures could be used in this case.

Thomas
Last edited by organtechnology on Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 11:29 am

very few people ever run subs that high. The standard go-to crossover is 80hz. I've never heard of someone running a sub at 160 or even 220 hz. So, you'll want good response down to at least 80hz in most cases.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 1:15 pm

Romanos wrote:very few people ever run subs that high. The standard go-to crossover is 80hz. I've never heard of someone running a sub at 160 or even 220 hz. So, you'll want good response down to at least 80hz in most cases.


OK, make the top end of the sub 100Hz. My question still remains unanswered.
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
USA and Canada shipments only.
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 1:22 pm

organtechnology wrote:In the spirit of open conversation I have some thoughts on the frequency response of the combined speakers.

I am wondering why you are going to the trouble of building speakers that have the capability of producing sounds below the top end of the subwoofer?

If you consider the speaker/subwoofer(s) as one analog electric to acoustic transducer, should not the objective be to produce a smooth SPL curve across the audio spectrum needed by the Hauptwerk/sample set combination?

If the subwoofer is rated 16Hz to 160Hz why use a speaker that goes from 32Hz to 20 kHz? Why not match the high end of the sub roll off the the bottom of the speaker such that the combination of subs and speakers produces no peaks or valleys on the audio sweep from 16Hz to 20kHz under anechoic conditions?

It appears that smaller, less expensive speaker enclosures could be used in this case.

Thomas


Just because a speaker has a "range" of xHz to zHz, doesn't mean that it ACTUALLY does that WELL.

Secondly, just because a speaker may be capable of doing it, you never want to make it so that one speaker is carrying too much of a load at any one time. If a speaker cabinet, lets say, has a range of 32Hz to 32,000Hz, (which is impressive!) then using that speaker just for an 8' Diapason rank (or insert any other rank here that will only ever utilize 60-75% of the specified frequency range - the 8' ranks extending down only to 64Hz) then you have plenty of room left as to never extend that speaker to it's maximum.

Now, on the point of subs, it is impossible for any sub to reproduce the high frequencies in any given sample. Even those samples of a 32' Bombarde or 32' Principal still have very high frequencies involved that may not be obvious in the sustain of the sample, but will likely be crucial to hearing the attack or often the "chiff" of a pipe during it's articulation. My plan, for the sake of this sub arrangement is to basically have a full-range speaker setup, but one that has as few crossover points as possible.

The TubaHT, as pointed out earlier in the thread, really handles the 16Hz - 32Hz range beautifully. Above that, it DOES produce plenty of sound and output, but it LACKS clarity, bite and attack. This is because of many factors but mainly it comes down to two:

1.) It's a 15" driver from Dayton Audio, and as such it is a large membrane that is difficult to get moving quickly. I'm sure companies out there make 15" drivers with MASSIVE motors that can articulate much quicker, but they aren't going to be anywhere near the price of the Dayton.

2.) The TubaHT is an incredibly long horn.

Taking all of that into consideration, having the TubaHT handle everything it can above the fundamental isn't actually going to do any good, when it's real "sweet spot," that is to say, the range in which it does what it does BEST, is 16Hz - 32Hz pure fundamental tones. Anything above that, including fundamentals and harmonics, would ultimately be best-reproduced in other drivers/systems. Therefore, while I will likely cross the TubaHT over somewhere an octave or so above 32Hz (that is to say - 64Hz), I do not plan on utilizing it that high. At that point, the secondary sub, the tall 8' pipe, the CSS Trio12 BIB variation, will come into play. All in all, the ONLY ranks of pipes that will have access to these are the 32' and 16', and the upper harmonics beyond will be applied to a different speaker. So, all in, a single 32' or 16' rank may actually be spread across 2 or even 3 speaker cabinets at one time, just to handle all of the energy produced by those ranks, when accounting for fundamental, and overtones/harmonics.

The other speakers that I have been building, since starting this thread, will only be applicable to the 8' and smaller ranks, and since they make up the overwhelming majority of the instrument, it's pretty crucial for me not to just "accept" an off-the-shelf speaker. I can always stop what I'm doing an run down to the "experts" at GuitarCenter.

Finding an off-the shelf speaker that is suited to any one room or environment, especially when being as critical as we are about the authenticity of organ sounds, is the same as attempting to take an existing organ, designed for one space, and forcing it into another space and expecting it to sound and respond the same.

The point of my research is as follows:

1. Satisfy my own curiosity and love for experimentation.
2. Fit the needs of my personal aesthetic in terms of sound reproduction.
3. See if a self-made speaker can either perform the same as, or (and this is already proven) BETTER than an off-the-shelf speaker, for much MUCH LESS money. (Assuming the individual building them has sufficient tools and facilities to make them.)
4. Be of some benefit to others.


That was long. But, hopefully that explains my thought process. Does any of that seem irrational?
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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magnaton

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 1:51 pm

dw154515 wrote: I can always stop what I'm doing an run down to the "experts" at GuitarCenter.


Ha ha, that one made me laugh! :lol:

That was long. But, hopefully that explains my thought process. Does any of that seem irrational?


Not at all. I think some of us DIY-ers are just a little jealous that you have the trifecta of an organist who knows electronics with wood working skills (and tools). Oh yea, plus a legitimate project that will directly benefit from this work and experimentation. If we were in the same town, I'd volunteer to help.

Danny B.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 2:01 pm

For my subs I have 18" drivers in 6' tall x 24" Sonotubes. I also use a set of Behringer B2031A's for the upper frequencies which one definitely needs, as Drew said. As I understand it TL speakers are mainly used for subs and low frequency extension. Normally I think a driver with a large x-max would be used. Using a full range driver would limit the low end alot as they are normally low x-max with a cloth surround and higher resonant frequency. The TL's I built many years ago only used 12" drivers, but went easily down to 16 Hz with a good output. I think they also have a good transient response. I would probably use them again, but really liked round design, it goes better with my pipes and I have alot of ceiling height so they still don't look that big.

Eric
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 2:03 pm

magnaton wrote:
dw154515 wrote: I can always stop what I'm doing an run down to the "experts" at GuitarCenter.


Ha ha, that one made me laugh! :lol:

That was long. But, hopefully that explains my thought process. Does any of that seem irrational?


Not at all. I think some of us DIY-ers are just a little jealous that you have the trifecta of an organist who knows electronics with wood working skills (and tools). Oh yea, plus a legitimate project that will directly benefit from this work and experimentation. If we were in the same town, I'd volunteer to help.

Danny B.


I use the term "expert," because that is actually how they refer to themselves. I once had a run-in with one of their salesmen, and, it just so happened that their store manager was actually a good customer of mine when I worked at a local Hi-Fi / Home Theater shop. I had to fill him in on the irony of referring to themselves as such. He acknowledged his disdain for their corporate policy of using that term, rather falsely.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 2:08 pm

Eric Sagmuller wrote:For my subs I have 18" drivers in 6' tall x 24" Sonotubes. I also use a set of Behringer B2031A's for the upper frequencies which one definitely needs, as Drew said. As I understand it TL speakers are mainly used for subs and low frequency extension. Normally I think a driver with a large x-max would be used. Using a full range driver would limit the low end alot as they are normally low x-max with a cloth surround and higher resonant frequency. The TL's I built many years ago only used 12" drivers, but went easily down to 16 Hz with a good output. I think they also have a good transient response. I would probably use them again, but really liked round design, it goes better with my pipes and I have alot of ceiling height so they still don't look that big.

Eric


Did you do these designs yourself? Or were they done for you? Care to share?

This particular TL is not my design. Instead, the frequency response puts it in a good place to use with 8' ranks. I added the piezo horn to this first pair, just to give myself the ability to audition it with and without. Plus, suggestions that I read elsewhere on the internet, by many people, said that adding a tweeter was a good idea with that design.

Again, if they don't fit the bill, and aren't well-suited, I've wasted........ about $70 and two evenings of my life. So what.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 2:18 pm

magnaton wrote:
dw154515 wrote: I can always stop what I'm doing an run down to the "experts" at GuitarCenter.


Ha ha, that one made me laugh! :lol:

That was long. But, hopefully that explains my thought process. Does any of that seem irrational?


Not at all. I think some of us DIY-ers are just a little jealous that you have the trifecta of an organist who knows electronics with wood working skills (and tools). Oh yea, plus a legitimate project that will directly benefit from this work and experimentation. If we were in the same town, I'd volunteer to help.

Danny B.


Also, I'd like to follow up with your last comment. While I have made every effort to acquire adequate tools over the years (I'm only 28 years old), for myself and because of my job, this particular TL design is so easy that, if it works well, Home Depot will actually do ALL of the cutting for you, except the round hole for the speaker driver, because it's just straight lines, meaning all you have to have is a jig saw (or router) and some wood glue and you can make it yourself. Again, I will divulge all of this information when this wraps up at some point in the future, and if I feel the designs are sufficient and worth messing with.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Romanos

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 3:02 pm

Drew- it all makes sense to me.

I will posit one other advantage to having your mains go down lower than you need: it means that they will do quite well as low as you do need them. My 5" monitors can hit 64hz (but only just barely). I really don't get usable sound that low even though they are "producing" the sound. I'm sure if they had the ability to extend lower, they would sound much more fulfilling at the bottom end of an 8' principal and not sound so thin. The fact that the speakers you build can comfortably extend either direction farther then you need will ultimately serve you well in the long run. Mind you, there are few people that ever get anywhere close to the 20-45k hz that many tweeters get to either. 20k is the highest we supposedly hear so anything beyond that is just marketing hype, and even then, we often don't have a lot of usable sounds that high anyway. That's dog whistle territory.
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 5:08 pm

dw154515 wrote:
Eric Sagmuller wrote:For my subs I have 18" drivers in 6' tall x 24" Sonotubes. I also use a set of Behringer B2031A's for the upper frequencies which one definitely needs, as Drew said. As I understand it TL speakers are mainly used for subs and low frequency extension. Normally I think a driver with a large x-max would be used. Using a full range driver would limit the low end alot as they are normally low x-max with a cloth surround and higher resonant frequency. The TL's I built many years ago only used 12" drivers, but went easily down to 16 Hz with a good output. I think they also have a good transient response. I would probably use them again, but really liked round design, it goes better with my pipes and I have alot of ceiling height so they still don't look that big.

Eric


Did you do these designs yourself? Or were they done for you? Care to share?

This particular TL is not my design. Instead, the frequency response puts it in a good place to use with 8' ranks. I added the piezo horn to this first pair, just to give myself the ability to audition it with and without. Plus, suggestions that I read elsewhere on the internet, by many people, said that adding a tweeter was a good idea with that design.

Again, if they don't fit the bill, and aren't well-suited, I've wasted........ about $70 and two evenings of my life. So what.


Drew,

Designs: are you referring to the Sonotube subs? If so, yes I used a program that does the calculations.

As far as your TL design goes, if it's small and only covers 8' stops, then I would think a full range driver is perfectly fine. In my younger years I had only heard of them used for subs below 100 HZ or so. So that's what I thought of right away.

Eric
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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 8:05 pm

This is so much FUN!!! :D

So I was wondering, has anyone heard of bi-amping speakers and using an equalizer(s) to roll them off instead of crossovers? I have no idea if the effect is better or worse than a crossover, I just heard it mentioned somewhere.

Also, Madisound has some nice looking full-range drivers, some of them with some very smooth response curves (that I may have been thinking of when I mentioned the Dayton). :oops:
A Fountek in particular, and some Marc Audio as well, although it doesn't seem that the latter are for anything with high volume levels if I read it right.

~Scott
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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dw154515

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Re: Large Church Installation - Open Conversation, Please

PostWed Mar 30, 2016 8:58 pm

scottherbert wrote:This is so much FUN!!! :D

So I was wondering, has anyone heard of bi-amping speakers and using an equalizer(s) to roll them off instead of crossovers? I have no idea if the effect is better or worse than a crossover, I just heard it mentioned somewhere.

Also, Madisound has some nice looking full-range drivers, some of them with some very smooth response curves (that I may have been thinking of when I mentioned the Dayton). :oops:
A Fountek in particular, and some Marc Audio as well, although it doesn't seem that the latter are for anything with high volume levels if I read it right.

~Scott


The Fostex drivers that I used in the previous build (the small folded horn) came from MadiSound.

I was looking at the Marc Audio drivers as well and have considered using them in the Windermere^2 design, as that cab is originally designed for one of their obsolete drivers - and no current replacement is available as a direct replacement. They have similar drivers, but nothing exact.

I was able to finish one of the TL speakers tonight, but the other will have to wait for a day or two as I will be busy the next few nights.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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