Large Church Installation - Greenwood UMC - Greenwood, IN

PLEASE READ!

I FREQUENTLY GET EMAILS AND PHONE CALLS LOOKING FOR INFORMATION AND RECOMMENDATIONS. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS INSTRUMENT OR ARE IN NEED OF CONSULTATION FOR YOUR OWN PROJECT, PLEASE FIND MY EMAIL IN THE FOLLOWING LINK....

https://www.drewworthen.com/

THANK YOU!

-----EDIT-----(5/20/20)

The organ is now a little over a year old and I just want to point out that, to date, the instrument has run flawlessly. I did recently have a stick of RAM go bad, but that was no major ordeal. If you're interested in hearing the organ, you can visit our YouTube channel at:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2v98Yw5vWslQEmcDB7_P3A/playlists?view_as=subscriber

-----EDIT-----(7/6/19)

This forum has turned into a large discussion about various speaker builds that I have been doing, as to compare them against modern "PA" speaker alternatives, as well as a living story of Greenwood UMC's new Hauptwerk organ. The organ was completed and used for the first time Easter Sunday April 21, 2019, and was officially consecrated with a large dedication recital June 22, 2019 feature Dr. John Allegar, Dr. Marko Petricic, Greg Gyllsdorff, and Justin Nimmo. GUMC and myself would like to thank the members of this forum for the invaluable help and guidance throughout this project. I hope the information you find here helps you in your own project.

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME VIA MY WEBSITE AT:
https://www.drewworthen.com …. You can also find more info at the church website: http://www.GreenwoodUMC.org. If you subscribe for the newsletter, you can be notified of upcoming concerts and programs featuring the instrument! If you're in the Indianapolis area, you're always welcome to visit - if scheduling permits.

The various speaker designs built to date are:

- Bill Fitzmaurice TubaHT (awesome sub! Built properly it will really do some low-end with real power)


- CSS Trio12 BIB (Great and powerful without being "boomy", really smooth and clean down to 32Hz (or 16' C)). I did modify this from the original design, so it isn’t technically the CSS Trio12 per se.


- Bill Fitzmaurice TLAH Pro (line arrays are not the way to go in my case - or most I'm assuming)


- Fostex BK-12m (good for small home setups. Very clean and easy to listen to)


- Nelson Pass BOFU TL (not impressed - likely my own build mistake)


- CSS Windermere^2 (great for medium-sized home setups. Similar tonality to the Fostex BK-12m but dual drivers.)


- PartsExpress TriTrix (GREAT for homes and smaller rooms. Would be great in multi-channel setups. The flat-pack kits make these a VERY easy build and for the price are a good solid competitor to anything off the shelf. I would easily take these over many of the entry-level Def Techs or Polks on the market.)


- PartsExpress Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle (pretty great results.... specific details to come soon)


"OFF THE SHELF" SPEAKERS AUDITIONED AGAINST THESE:
- Behringer Truth b2031a (ultimately the winner when comparing performance, price, value, etc. to the aforementioned, at least for my project. Building 48 speakers vs buying them, was the ultimate deal breaker)

- Kustom PA KPM210 (cheap, muddy, and blaahhhh.... worth the experiment, but nothing more)



----- END OF EDIT-----(7/6/19)

========ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE ===========

Folks,

I have been reading a lot on the forums over the last few months about audio possibilities for large, relatively dry spaces. This has led me to a pretty safe conclusion that, despite what you read on the internet, no two setups or scenarios are going to match perfectly.

That being said, I have taken the pointers from what many people have said on these forums and I would like to try and compile that information here, and share a few pictures and ideas, and I'd appreciate it if you folks would chime in and let me know your initial reactions to my ideas.

THE PURPOSE:
I am the music director at a local Methodist church and I love this congregation so much that I would really like to give them a new instrument to use. The existing Allen, an old MOS-1, I believe - (I could be wrong about that). Regardless, a new, flexible, decent-sounding instrument is desperately needed.

THE PLAN:
I am planning and designing a IV-Manual console, with the thought of using (and this is up for discussion) either Salisbury or the long-rumored Skinner Update, preferably. Being an American church, I know the "American Symphonic" sound would be very-well received and well-suited for the music we use. There are other contenders out there as well, and I would certainly welcome your thoughts in this area.

THE SANCTUARY:
This church has a rather large sanctuary, probably 120'+ long, by 60' across, with extremely high ceilings. The trouble, however, is that with wood-slat ceiling, carpet floors, etc., the reverb time is almost non-existent.


I have read conflicting forums about wet vs. dry, surround vs. stereo, etc. and my instinct is to lean towards wet, stereo samples. Reverb tails in the Salisbury set, for example, would not be a problem in my mind. So I am leaning towards maybe 12 channels of audio, 5 stereo groups, and a couple of sub/low-mid channels.

THE SUBS:
Since I have plenty of experience in the wood-working, wiring, soldering, electronics, areas, I am mostly concerned about the audio system. I have a strong knowledge of audio, and have a full-time job, and business, doing A/V installations in large commercial spaces. However, I have never had to design one myself.

Life has led me to believe that the best education in the world is experience, and experience only comes about through experimentation. So, I began building different speaker designs that I have read about here on the forums, or found elsewhere on the internet. I started by tackling the subs first.




On the left, we have the 96" tall, CSS Trio 12 BIB (which I modified and used a 12" Dayton Audio Driver).


Construction Photos:







And on the right, we have the infamous TubaHT by Bill Fitzmaurice.

Description:
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html

Construction Photos:









I enjoyed building both of these Subs and I have my fondness for both of them. The TubaHT, as everyone has suggested, will just rattle your teeth, and it's awesome! My gripe, however, is that, since it is a horn, and a verrrrryy looooooong horn, with a 15" driver, it certainly isn't the most articulate sub in the world. The Trio12 BIB, however, has a very nice, clean attack, and an overall better demeanor in terms of reproducing a 16' pipe. It does, after all, even LOOK very similar to the 16' Bourdon pipes that it's intended to emulate. But it isn't capable of the 16Hz range like the TubaHT. So, my thoughts are to actually use a single TubaHT with 2 or more Trio12 BIB's, and having only the 32Hz and up routed to them, and everything below 32Hz, routed to the TubaHT. Thoughts?

THE SPEAKERS:
I am about to finish building a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's TLAH Pro's.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/TLAH.html

I should be able to finish the first pair in the next couple of days and begin testing them with the two subs and begin experimenting with crossover settings. Does anyone see any issue with using these for this purpose? I think having these line-arrays in such a large, voluminous space, would be a great match. Both the speakers and subs, would live up on top of those large wooden bump-outs flanking each side of the alter - (see picture). (There is actually a bathroom/baptistry changing room in one side, and the electrical system for the sanctuary and existing organ in the other.)

I am not really asking for answers to specific questions, but more or less checking to see if anyone out there might have some useful information to add to this. I have read forums to the point of just being confused and have ultimately decided that experimentation always yields the best results - just checking for others' thoughts along the way.

Thank you,
Drew

Hello Drew:

Congratulations on undertaking this project for your church. This sounds like it will be a fun and learning process. I can interpret the enthusiasm of in your post on getting this going.

Just a few comments:
I'd suggest you partner with some technically minded congregation members along the way to distribute the knowledge. This way you're not the only guy who knows how this system works and all ties together. Its the "if you get hit by a bus" syndrome. You will combining several somewhat desperate technologies: high-end audio, computer, audio interface, VPO technology, MIDI, etc. This is the case the digital organ reps bring to the table if someone mentions HW; their response is you deal with a company for support and service.

If you haven't done so, read this excellent post by forum member Brooke Benfield who was in the same situation as you. She also happen to upgrade her church to a 4 manual console!

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13670

Regarding speakers, you will be given lots advise and opinions here. I'm not familiar how a line array will sound with HW. Since you are almost finished with the TALH Pros you'll soon be finding out. Is one speaker array with the 16 drivers just one channel? If so, I would consider building several of these or better yet make them 1/2 sizes (8 drivers) if that is feasible so you can have more channels.

Many of us have read Marc's (author = 1961TC4ME) posts on mutichannel routing and being able to disperse the sound in a number of different arrangements. You'll be amazed how well a HW organ can sound when the ranks and or notes are distributed on separate audio channels. In my experimentation phase, I dedicated a stereo pair just to a Trumpet stop. I EQ'd the stop and raised the volume considerably using the HW voicing tools so I have a home made En Chamade that can be solo (truly solo) or sits on top of the ensemble with out any IMD. I got this idea from an old Rodgers brochure that showed a folded horn speaker dedicated for a Festival Trumpet or Tuba Profunda stop.

Keep us abreast of your progress.

~Danny B.

Hi Drew;

I must correct one small thing in Dannys' reply to you.....it is improper to refer to me as "she". I'm definitely a guy and being the age I am, I've had my name with its female-associated spelling far longer than any of the famous ladies out there. And I also promise you they are far prettier than I.

Now to be down to business, I sympathize with you having a dead room and on top of that, A-Frame designs tend to quash reverberation even when the various surfaces are reasonably reflective.

Maybe I'm an old stick in the mud, but I think making wet samples sound authentic in a dead room will be challenging. My main objection (let's say in a wet set from just a few years back) is that the sounds will fade toward the source which is not how a real wet acoustic would work. In addition to that, the organ likely will be the only sound source in the room with reverberation further adding to the perception of the organ not being real.

A surround set might work better but would you be able to have enough speakers placed around the room to sufficiently replicate the omnipresent effect of a real wet acoustic? Would the congregation be agreeable to how that might look?

It's not my intention to discredit your idea here, I'm just speaking from my heart about how I perceive things. Keep in mind that even a very fine pipe organ installed in your room will suffer from the same acoustic limitations.

BTW, I envy your skill and experience with building speaker enclosures and professional sound system installation. I very much look forward to hearing more about your project.

Wishing you every success.

Hi Drew;

I must correct one small thing in Dannys' reply to you.....it is improper to refer to me as "she". I'm definitely a guy and being the age I am, I've had my name with its female-associated spelling far longer than any of the famous ladies out there. And I also promise you they are far prettier than I.

An idea, if you have your main speaker(s) up front, you might consider installing several additional speakers behind each wooden arch facing forward maybe.If you added just a slight amount of reverb (or hall effect) from something like a Lexicon MX400 (actually probably several) to create the illusion of the sound traveling from the front to back. Each pair of these "aux" speakers separately driven with their own power amps. All this using a dry sample set. This setup would require very delicate balancing to make it believable. A very little would work (I've done this) too much would be definitely quite unbelievable..

Rgds,
Ed

Hey Drew,

I commend you on your idea to use a SUB subwoofer, a concept I have seen discussed on several forums. The line array of the TLAH looks quite promising for this type of project. What drivers were you considering for it (them)?

~Scott

I am going to try and reply to each of your responses in a global response, because I greatly appreciate the input from everyone.

I will certainly be partnering with a few folks in the congregation because, first off, it's a great community project, and secondly, it would take me ages to finish on my own. That being said, I plan on doing all of the design and research, then just handing out the plans for other's to assist in building. I know I have a few good wood-workers and furniture/cabinet makers in the congregation who would have no trouble following Bill Fitzmaurice's detailed drawings and designs. I just want to make sure I'm using the right speakers and setup first.

The experiment and design phase is where I am mostly on my own, as no one in the congregation has any knowledge in this area. I work for a rather large and successful, high-end commercial A/V company by day, and do lots and LOTS of large, complex audio and video systems for theaters, concert halls, public venues, etc., so I feel, that if nothing else, I at least have that much going for me in this endeavor. However, my job has certainly never thrown such a complex multi-channel audio system at me, and rarely, if ever, are they expected to perform to such a grueling standard as my trained ear for organ literature. A few of the men in the congregation certainly have me whipped at fine wood-working, though, that's for sure.

The TLAH Pro's have 8 x 8" drivers and 8 piezo tweeters. In such a large, open space, the line arrays will give a good laser-focused sound projection which, in my thinking, would be great for maintaining clarity and nuance for pipe reproduction. I really don't have any major concern with them, but as for the time being, it is nothing more than a hunch. I plan on building several pairs of them. I'm not sure, however, if separating them by tone color, pitch, or both would yield the best results. There have been many of debates about this.

Thank you for the link to Brooke Benfield's thread. It was quite a read! Some great info there. Which leads me to follow up with one comment from his reply.

Maybe I'm an old stick in the mud, but I think making wet samples sound authentic in a dead room will be challenging. My main objection (let's say in a wet set from just a few years back) is that the sounds will fade toward the source which is not how a real wet acoustic would work. In addition to that, the organ likely will be the only sound source in the room with reverberation further adding to the perception of the organ not being real.

A surround set might work better but would you be able to have enough speakers placed around the room to sufficiently replicate the omnipresent effect of a real wet acoustic? Would the congregation be agreeable to how that might look?

I am very interested in comparing the wet vs. surround. I figure experimentation is the only path to knowledge and satisfaction - it's just a tremendous expense to try and get wrong. Are there surround sample sets out there that are free/inexpensive/demos?

There is a balcony in the rear of the church that I could put surround speakers in, and no one would have a problem, I don't figure. Beyond that, I don't know about putting them up in the rafters or support beams. That's a bit far and beyond what I was thinking. I am not looking for a sample set that is overly-wet.

As for Ed's suggestion, I do like that, and I have no issues in creating artificial reverb mixdowns with delays, or DSP's, but my main concern is hiding speakers up in the ceiling beams. It can certainly be done, and I don't mind getting up there and doing it, I'm just not sure if the congregation will go for it. It's a bit too early in the process yet, but still a great idea.

One piece of gear that I use at work ALL THE TIME, and I am a certified programmer for, is BiAmp. While BiAmp is typically used in conferencing and mix-minus PA environments, it has EXTREME flexibility in terms of it's DSP. You can run 12 balanced analog lines in, do whatever DSP you want, literally anything, then route it back out in any configuration that you want. Crossovers, EQs, Compressors, Gates, Filters.... you name it, all in there. Great stuff. This would allow me to do all of my mixing and routing. They offer several product lines and could fit the bill, no problem. I have never heard of someone using them for Hauptwerk, though. Input welcomed, here.

Hey Drew,

I commend you on your idea to use a SUB subwoofer, a concept I have seen discussed on several forums. The line array of the TLAH looks quite promising for this type of project. What drivers were you considering for it (them)?

~Scott

Scott, the SUB Subwoofer seems like the only viable option for getting all of the frequencies reproduced cleanly and accurately, in such a large space. For this first batch of TLAH Pro's, since these are experimental in nature, I ordered 16 GRS 8PF-8's, (@ $9/ea.) instead of the Eminence Alpha 8's (@ $49/ea.), which are the recommended drivers, as per Bill Fitzmaurice's design. I have read countless other forums where people raved about the design using cheap drivers, so I decided to go with inexpensive, yet very favorably reviewed, for this first pair. It will, at the very least, give me the answer I need, and that is; "Are line arrays the way to go?"

Thanks for the input, guys!

Hi Drew;

I must correct one small thing in Dannys' reply to you.....it is improper to refer to me as "she". I'm definitely a guy and being the age I am, I've had my name with its female-associated spelling far longer than any of the famous ladies out there. And I also promise you they are far prettier than I. ...

Heh, reminds me of a former Sports writer for the Washington Post newspaper, Shirley Povich.
HE was once even listed in Who's Who in American Women! HE was definitely a guy.
HE was also Father of Maury Povich, TV personality.

As for Ed's suggestion, I do like that, and I have no issues in creating artificial reverb mixdowns with delays, or DSP's, but my main concern is hiding speakers up in the ceiling beams. It can certainly be done, and I don't mind getting up there and doing it, I'm just not sure if the congregation will go for it. It's a bit too early in the process yet, but still a great idea.:

"Hiding" them is the reason for placing them on the altar (forward) side of the beams. For the intended purpose, these would not have to be large, full range speaker systems, but thinking more in line of similar to your mentioned 8" line arrays, possibly somewhat more (custom) narrow to fit without being obvious. When done well, these extra "sources" added a certain sparkle to the sound that complimented the direct up front sound without taking anything away.

What we had to do, wiring wise, to "disguise" the wiring was to install PVC "conduit" on the outside (under the eaves) of the church and "tee" the conduit at the appropriate places to feed the speakers. Amazing, to this day, no one has ever commented about this maybe because the white PVC blends in with the exterior trim. Just an idea.

Altho I've never used one on a H/W install, you probably are familiar with an Ashly Protea ne24.24M Audio Matrix Processor. Besides all the extensive features it has, this box can be "remote controlled" via a network (laptop) permitting adjusting of all of the parameters including routing virtually from anywhere, And, of course, everything is done in the digital domain. I esp like the ability to make any and all adjustments (wirelessly) out in an auditorium, save them and go back to a previous setup at anytime. Great for A/B testing, too (Now where is the nice sound effect I had 2 weeks ago Oh, yes right here under Effect #25) Must be getting late after a long day as I'm getting a little punchy.

You might find some interesting info from several older threads altho here the purpose was to eventually add real pipes (hybrid) to an initial Hauptwerk installation by Bob Collins.

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/search.php?keywords=Bob+Collins&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Here are some additional threads regarding another church installation by Clinton Knight which may have some facts for you:

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/search.php?keywords=Clinton+Knight&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Altho every installation is totally unique, I relish info already gained so as to, in effect, not having to "reinvent the wheel."

Rgds,
Ed

Is the organ meant to accompany congregational singing? In that case with wet/surround sample sets you will create a conflict between the acoustics that the singers experience and the acoustics that the samples produce artificially.

Is the organ meant to accompany congregational singing? In that case with wet/surround sample sets you will create a conflict between the acoustics that the singers experience and the acoustics that the samples produce artificially.

That's an important point to consider. If strictly a solo instrument, (which is unlikely) artificial acoustics (wet/surround) doesn't effect one's internal brain perception as much as it would within a choir member or congregation (member's) senses. If you are a singer, your brain is telling you about the acoustics it "hears" from your voice via your ears while the pseudo acoustic via the organ setup is telling you something different. Kinda a mental state of confusion many people don't totally perceive, but "know" something isn't quite right. An extreme similar situation is when you try to talk and there is a second or so delay(echo) in the fed back audio. We used to have something like that on our phone land line. I had a phone tech come to the house and try to talk on the phone. He couldn't even count past 4 with that echo. Of course that's an extreme which wouldn't be the case in this installation but it's amazing how the human brain functions.

My own opinion is that regardless of the sample technique used, it all boils down to the audio system and the "audio system" does included the room's acoustics. Even Hauptwerk squeezed into a 2 channel audio system, cannot replicate the sound of a real pipe organ.

I came across the following comparison by Viscount, when you have time try it. I made a score of 5 in 10.

It reminded me of the FTC tests performed at the U of Chicago Rockefeller chapel organ vs the Hammond a number of years ago, and of a promotion by Mario Salvatore at the Cathedral of Mexico playing a Hammond RT3, (it’s amazing how good it sounds in a reverberant auditorium).

Don't forget to share the quiz with your friends or have them go here:

http://viscountorgans.net/quiz-entry/

Rgds,
Ed

.

What will you be using for the console? As noted in my parallel thread: http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15010, the console may well end up being the limiting factor in terms of cost.

Thank you for the input, folks.

I got back home today and was able to get a lot done on one of the TLAH Pro's. Pics below:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100504250107072.1073741836.153103186&type=1&l=4b32487933

"Hiding" them is the reason for placing them on the altar (forward) side of the beams. For the intended purpose, these would not have to be large, full range speaker systems, but thinking more in line of similar to your mentioned 8" line arrays, possibly somewhat more (custom) narrow to fit without being obvious. When done well, these extra "sources" added a certain sparkle to the sound that complimented the direct up front sound without taking anything away.

What we had to do, wiring wise, to "disguise" the wiring was to install PVC "conduit" on the outside (under the eaves) of the church and "tee" the conduit at the appropriate places to feed the speakers. Amazing, to this day, no one has ever commented about this maybe because the white PVC blends in with the exterior trim. Just an idea.

Altho I've never used one on a H/W install, you probably are familiar with an Ashly Protea ne24.24M Audio Matrix Processor. Besides all the extensive features it has, this box can be "remote controlled" via a network (laptop) permitting adjusting of all of the parameters including routing virtually from anywhere, And, of course, everything is done in the digital domain. I esp like the ability to make any and all adjustments (wirelessly) out in an auditorium, save them and go back to a previous setup at anytime. Great for A/B testing, too (Now where is the nice sound effect I had 2 weeks ago Oh, yes right here under Effect #25) Must be getting late after a long day as I'm getting a little punchy.

The TLAH Pro design pack from Bill comes with 2 versions: the original flat-to-front (mostly) and the tapered, toed-in, version. These could be easily modified to be disguised in the framing rather easily, true enough. I just had not thought of that. I like the idea, and it certainly may be the best case.

I have never used the Ashly piece you mentioned. It is very similar in nature to the BiAmp processors that I am used to. BiAmp makes multiple versions, with configurable ins and outs. It, too, can be edited remotely via IP connection. I would be able to remote into it from the sanctuary, or even from the computer in the console. BiAmp also has another piece of software called "Canvas" that actually allows you to build a virtual mixing console, utilizing any parameters inside of your audio program, in the processor. (You can add or remove literally every control, then have a way of changing parameters without actually changing the program.... it's extremely cool!)

http://www.ingearpr.com/Biamp/Biamp_Canvas.gif

What will you be using for the console? As noted in my parallel thread: http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15010, the console may well end up being the limiting factor in terms of cost.

The console will either be a custom build - more than likely - or will be a repurposing of an old Wurliter "Toaster" shell that I have. I will build the PC myself (as I did on my personal Hauptwerk instrument) and will also do all of the wiring. I am not planning on using solenoid draw-knobs, tabs, SAMS, etc. I have considered using the Classic MidiWorks rocker tabs, but I'm not sure. I really like the idea of being able to switch sample sets, though I doubt that would ever happen. I saw MGB just came out with a solution to address this, but they are rather expensive and I haven't looked into them. As for this moment, I am focusing my efforts on the audio system. This project is a long, gradual work-in-progress, so I'm going to be at it for a while and will have more time to focus on this as we go along.

Very useful (and economical) MIDI controller board

http://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2 for all sorts of MIDI encoders, along with

http://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2 (one or more of these) for lighted stop tabs/draw knobs,

http://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=BBSP for pedal board and swell/expr pedals,

http://midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MiDisp one or more for text messages.

BTW, I wire the unused pin 1 and pin 5 to carry 12 VDC supply voltage to all the MIDI boards. (An easy and reliable hack). A single 5 pin MIDI (din cable carries power along with MIDI messages.

Rgds,
Ed

Ed, I think you meant to leave out the "info@" part in the mentioned links.
w.k.r. itsabird

Corrected, thanks.

Rgds,
Ed