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Hauptwerk and subwoofers

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rbval2001

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Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostWed Sep 23, 2020 6:10 pm

In the church where I play, we have a large speaker cabinet supplied by Peterson for use with their low tone generators for supplying 32 foot pipe extensions for the Buzard pipe organ. I am wondering if there is any way to use this speaker in conjunction with the Hauptwerk system I have added to the organ in order to amplify the low pitches.. I have tried several connection methods, both with the existing amplifier supplied by Peterson as well as with my own amplifier and nothing has worked out to sound satisfactory. Has anyone had experience with this?
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 10:16 am

A bit more info could prove useful. When you say the sound isn't satisfactory, what do you mean? Is the sound weak, no sound at all, or? Also, what Hauptwerk sample set are you using and what ranks of it are you attempting to direct to this cabinet? Assuming you have things connected correctly from your Hauptwerk / sound card audio output to the Peterson cabinet, are you certain you have your Hauptwerk audio group set up correctly and that you're sending the ranks you desire to this audio group and then on to the cabinet?

Marc
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brooke.benfield

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 10:33 am

As you experiment, I would caution you that you shouldn't connect the outputs of two amplifiers to the same load (speaker) or directly connect two line level (input) signals to each other.

There's an old joke in the electronics world that all those components on the circuit boards run on smoke. If you let the smoke out of the components, they won't work anymore.

The first scenario I mentioned above could result in letting the smoke out of one or both of the amplifiers.
Brooke Benfield
Organist, Gethsemane Lutheran Church
Portland OR
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rbval2001

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am

Thanks for the reply.

I currently have the Sonos Paradisi Casavant sample set hooked up so that the low octaves of the 32' Soubasse and 32' Bourdon play through a relatively inexpensive Polk subwoofer. Some notes are OK but others are not, and certainly the lowest pitches are beyond the capabilities of the Polk to reproduce.
When I tried to hook up my audio interface output to the amplifier that is in the organ chamber for the Peterson low note tone generator, I get nothing all from the big Peterson speaker. When I used my own amplifier and connected to the Peterson speaker, I get some sounds but certainly not anything that resembles a 32' Bourdon. I do have the advanced edition of Hauptwerk and have tried every possible tweaking in the voicing menu but still have not achieved satisfactory results. I also have the Hereford Cathedral, EM Skinner in Chicago, Aeolian-Skinner in Garden Grove sets and still have not achieved satisfactory results for any of the 32's.
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 12:50 pm

Yes, I too would certainly not connect your amplifier to the cabinet. So, how are you connecting either the output directly from your sound card or from your amp to the Peterson? Are you connecting to a L / R audio in on the Peterson amp? One clue is if connecting directly from the sound card to the L /R inputs results in basically nothing, but you get 'some' sound when you connect your amp to the same tells me the output db for that audio group is set too low and this is something you can adjust in Hauptwerk group by group. The db for that group may currently be set at 0 or lower, try raising it to like +10, but connect from the sound card to the Peterson amp only, leave your other amp out of the picture and see what happens.

Marc
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larason2

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 1:09 pm

I think Marc's answer is helpful, but I wanted to add a bit more. With the audio interface connected to the Peterson, have you tried increasing the audio interface volume of the channels going to the Peterson? I wouldn't adjust the Peterson gain or output volume. However, if you have maxed the volume on the interface and Hauptwerk and you don't hear anything, or it is still very quiet, then the signal going to the Peterson isn't loud enough.

If you don't want to adjust the settings on the Peterson amplifier, you can get an amplifier, and position it between the audio interface and the Peterson. Just be careful you start at low amplification and increase very gradually, so you don't burn out the Peterson amplifier.

If you get a loud enough signal, but you get a lot of distortion, then it is possible the balance of gain/volume out is off. Usually you get distortion if your gain is really high, but volume out too low, or gain really low, volume out too high in proportion. I usually start with gain fairly low, then increase volume gradually. If unsatisfactory results, decrease volume, increase gain a bit, then try increasing volume gradually again. Repeat until you get the sound you want, slowly increasing gain.

Could be some other problem though. An important consideration is low/high frequencies. Depending on the subwoofer, sometimes you need a filter (can't remember if it is low pass or high pass), to make it sound right. For instance, if the subwoofer doesn't reproduce high frequencies well. However, if you cut out the high frequencies, you need something else to play them (other speakers in the room), otherwise it will sound strange. If you're sending a mix down with no filtering to the Peterson, you may want to try a filter, in case the strange sounds are the poorly rendered high frequencies. If you're sending it with a filter, but don't have other speakers covering the high frequencies, add speakers covering the high frequencies. If you have speakers covering the high frequencies and are filtering the input to the Peterson, try taking the filter off and see what happens. At least then you'll know how the Peterson handles high frequencies fed to it.

Also as Marc said, adjusting the volume in Hauptwerk in addition to the above may be worth a try. The Hauptwerk volume would act as a gain for the system though, so make sure it isn't too high in proportion to the other settings.
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostThu Sep 24, 2020 1:34 pm

Good points larason2 makes. Yes, as pointed out there's several things to look at and there's 5 ways I know of that you can adjust volume. As mentioned, if you then get a distorted signal you can adjust each individually until you get what you want, in addition you can watch the Hauptwerk volume signal meter and if it goes into the red you know where to start. As for the 5 ways you can raise the volume that I know of: You can raise the volume of the given channels on the sound card control panel (around half to 3/4 of the way up is usually ample), you can use the Hauptwerk volume slider (are you using it?) which defaults to 100 unless you manually adjust it, you can raise the db of the given audio group, you can raise the amplitude of the ranks you're working with via the voicing provision, AND you can also raise the db of the entire sample set.
Look under the view tab / small for the volume slider and audio output, click on them and they will be placed above the stop view, etc., so you can then see and use them on the go. I usually set audio output for most of my sets around -5, but this is subject to debate / circumstances as some will go as low as -10 or more.

Sounds to me like you've got a weak output somewhere in the chain.

Marc
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scottherbert

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostFri Sep 25, 2020 8:13 am

Unless I am mistaken, the Peterson Low Note Generator is a tone GENERATOR, i.e., it MAKES the sound it produces and not a simple speaker and amplifier. If I am correct than this would be similar to hooking up the Hauptwerk to, say, the tone wheels of a Hammond and wondering why it doesn't make the sound you are putting in.

If I am correct in this, then perhaps what is needed is an actual subwoofer + amplifier for the 32 foot stops.
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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rbval2001

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostFri Sep 25, 2020 11:07 pm

Thanks for all those good ideas. When I think back about my experiments (which occurred a while ago), I remember that when I plugged my single channel cable from the sound card into either of the Peterson amp inputs, I got a hum, indicating unhappiness and incompatibility somewhere, Perhaps the plug was stereo as opposed to mono and caused a short - I will have to check. More likely, I think that "scottherbert" has hit the nail on the head with his analysis. If he is indeed correct, it's a shame, because the Peterson cabinet is huge and really would make an ideal subwoofer as opposed to the relatively small Polk PSW505 which I am currently using and just does not do the job adequately.
I am going to try all the suggestions that others of you have offered. I will begin by putting the 32's onto two channels which I then will plug into the Peterson amp (L & R) and see what happens. I will also experiment with the input volume.
I appreciate your input!
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scottherbert

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Re: Hauptwerk and subwoofers

PostSat Sep 26, 2020 9:19 am

rbval2001 would it be possible for you or someone experienced with electronics to see if the "tone generation" part can be bypassed? I do not know these units, but if they have an amplifier and speaker as part of the design then it may be possible. If not, perhaps another amp powering just the speaker?
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"

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