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Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

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TubaFan

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Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostThu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm

If you had 22 studio monitors to work with, how would you lay them out and route a 4 manual organ?

This is for a church installation. The speakers will be on the rear wall of choir loft at the rear of the church and will be mounted (at least the lower level) 9.5' above floor level of the choir loft.

I'm just trying to consider all options. Thanks!
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magnaton

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 2:37 am

This is a tough question since you didn't name to the organ (sample set) you are planning to use nor how big of space you plan need to fill (i.e. seating capacity of the Sanctuary). You said "mounted on rear wall". You may want to consider moving them several feet away from the wall if that is an option or build some speaker chambers.

Review this past thread of a large church install. This link will take to you a great discovery of not lining the speakers straight out.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&p=129767&hilit=array#p129767

There is much to consider and what works in a furnished living room could fail in a large open area with its own acoustic properties. You will need to determine what works best. Here are a couple of things to consider:
- Try running Mono vs Stereo. You'll have 22 discrete channels instead of 11 stereo channels.
- Consult with other organist or audio professionals so the instrument can best accompany the choir and congregation.

With regards to routing:
- The classic design of a stereo pair per organ division.
- Hauptwerk group with algorithm (x number of speakers in a group where ranks and notes are divvied amongst them)
- Consider solo stop(s), i.e. En Chamade in their own group or separate speaker pair.
Search to forum to read what others have done with regards to routing. Here is an nice detailed discussion of how one of our trusted members created a like-sounding-ranks design which is quite different from the first 2 methods I listed.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14769&p=110973#p109957

The beauty of Hauptwerk with the different Alt Configs and now audio presets is you can compare these different designs fairly easily switching by between them. If you incorporate the Midi record and Playback you can make an unbiased decision as it will be the same performance you are comparing between the final routing designs.

Hope this helps,

Danny B.
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TubaFan

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 11:03 am

Thanks for your reply!

FWIW, I had already read that entire thread several times. While it was certainly very useful, our space is not similar.

The church is cruciform and seats 400 if you really pack people in. Of course right now, we aren’t. The shelf I mentioned is actually designed to look like the facade of a pipe organ with stained wood work including the area below it on the rear wall. It sticks out 30” from the rear wall and the front 5-5.5” has a pipe facade. We can’t build a chamber in the space.

We are primarily interested in the 4 manual English cathedral sample sets. Once Peterborough is finally released at A440 and with the additional stops, that is what we plan on using and our intention is to stick with the same set regularly so the congregation feels like it is “their organ.” The monitors we are using are PreSonus R80s and there are also 2 custom built subs. We were going to use Behringers, but there has been very little to no availability in the US for the past 7 months, and there is no real estimate of when they will be in stock.

Maybe if I tell you what I had in mind then you could offer more specific feedback. I was thinking of routing Great and Pedal through 2 groups of 4 speakers on the left and right sides, Swell and Choir through 2 groups of 4 speakers in the middle, 2 dedicated speakers for the Solo Tuba(s), and 4 speakers on their backs facing upwards for a little bit of everything. The rest of the Solo would be routed through the center speakers. Of all these groups, I was thinking of routing reeds and celestes to half of them and flues to the other half. Of course the speakers would also be at various angles, not just facing straight forward.

Do you have any suggestions on how to improve this plan?
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:07 pm

Hello TubaFan,

I'd go into some detail on how I'd try routing, but I need more info and how you lay things out will make a BIG difference. You mention having 22 studio monitors. What I'm wondering first is, how many channels are you working with? If you use 22 monitors are you planning to have a group of 11 on the right and 11 on the left with separation between the two groups, or are you planning to have them all together in one area with no L/R separation? Then, are they stacked in any way shape or form, or are they laid out in one single row from right to left?

Marc
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magnaton

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:10 pm

Sounds like you have given this some thought. I agree with having a default set to get accustomed to and will allow you to make any voicing tweaks as time goes on.

I'm not sure of you intent of the 4 speakers on their backs facing upwards for a little bit of everything. These are near field monitors and really won't offer much pointing straight up. If these were source point speakers like those found on an Allen organ, then there is benefit from having them reflect the sound vs pointing direct. I don't won't to discourage you from trying your design, IMHO I would add these 4 speakers into on of your existing groups for main audio duty. It's okay to have an odd number or odd (stereo) pair in a group. Putting them in 'working' groups is more beneficial to help spread out notes & ranks. Try it both ways and report back to us :)

You probably have done this already, copy and paste the stop list from the audioangelorum website into a spreadsheet and create your route map (or two) with that. This makes a nice design tool and when you go into the HW rank routing menu, you simply follow it as a guide making it much easier.

Yea, I don't know whats going on with the Berry 2031A supply! I'm a fan of Presonus too so the R80s look like a nice choice especially with the ribbon tweeter. I'd consider the new Adam Audio Tv8 monitors as they are less expensive but not as powerful as the R80s. I'm guessing you'll be using the MOTU 24Ao audio interface?

BTW, consider yourself lucky getting to install this system in a choir loft! You won't have to worry about sound hurdles others face when placing the organ in the front:
- speaker placement
- speaker exposure
- can the congregation hear the organ as well as the choir (or vise versa)
- can the person in the last pew hear and feel the instrument
- will the person in the front pew get blasted on loud registrations

Regards,

Danny B.
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:39 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:Hello TubaFan,

I'd go into some detail on how I'd try routing, but I need more info and how you lay things out will make a BIG difference. You mention having 22 studio monitors. What I'm wondering first is, how many channels are you working with? If you use 22 monitors are you planning to have a group of 11 on the right and 11 on the left with separation between the two groups, or are you planning to have them all together in one area with no L/R separation? Then, are they stacked in any way shape or form, or are they laid out in one single row from right to left?

Marc


24 channels of audio, so 1 monitor per channel and the subs each take another channel.

Definitely not 2 groups L/R. The layout I was thinking about is in my post above.
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:53 pm

magnaton wrote:Sounds like you have given this some thought. I agree with having a default set to get accustomed to and will allow you to make any voicing tweaks as time goes on.

I'm not sure of you intent of the 4 speakers on their backs facing upwards for a little bit of everything. These are near field monitors and really won't offer much pointing straight up. If these were source point speakers like those found on an Allen organ, then there is benefit from having them reflect the sound vs pointing direct. I don't won't to discourage you from trying your design, IMHO I would add these 4 speakers into on of your existing groups for main audio duty. It's okay to have an odd number or odd (stereo) pair in a group. Putting them in 'working' groups is more beneficial to help spread out notes & ranks. Try it both ways and report back to us :)

You probably have done this already, copy and paste the stop list from the audioangelorum website into a spreadsheet and create your route map (or two) with that. This makes a nice design tool and when you go into the HW rank routing menu, you simply follow it as a guide making it much easier.

Yea, I don't know whats going on with the Berry 2031A supply! I'm a fan of Presonus too so the R80s look like a nice choice especially with the ribbon tweeter. I'd consider the new Adam Audio Tv8 monitors as they are less expensive but not as powerful as the R80s. I'm guessing you'll be using the MOTU 24Ao audio interface?

BTW, consider yourself lucky getting to install this system in a choir loft! You won't have to worry about sound hurdles others face when placing the organ in the front:
- speaker placement
- speaker exposure
- can the congregation hear the organ as well as the choir (or vise versa)
- can the person in the last pew hear and feel the instrument
- will the person in the front pew get blasted on loud registrations

Regards,

Danny B.


The idea of the speakers on their backs was to help make the sound less directional. I’ve seen several people recommend it, including the builder we are buying our setup from. I have no experience with it myself.

Everything has already been purchased, and should be delivered in the next couple weeks. We did look at those ADAM speakers but wanted something with more power.
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 1:42 pm

Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers. It makes a big difference to my ears.
If you go with stereo, that would take 8 speakers to achieve the same effect.
Reeds and Mixtures especially sound much better using tone matching mode 1 as it eliminates a lot of distortion.
If going stereo, you might try one group of 4 stereo pairs to route reeds and mixtures (maybe some of the richer 8 Principlas as well) to and then the rest in 3 stereo pairs.
I wouldn't do it by division unless you have enough space to physically separate the divisions so that people in the church can hear the physical separation. In the case of sampled organs, I think it is better to get the notes separated into different speakers as much as possible.
If you went with the 4 stereo pairs for reeds and Mixtures and three stereo pairs I would do something like:
Gt Principal 8 - pair 1 Octave 4 pair 2 Fifteenth pair 3 Gt 8 flute into pair 2 4 Flute into pair 1 etc.
Then follow a similar plan for other divisions separating the 8's as much as possible into the three pairs, the 4's .
That way when playing on a single division you have the stops coming from as many pairs as possible and when coupling the same pitch level from each division would be out of different pairs.
If going mono, I would have 5 sets of 4 and one stereo pair placed as high as possible. Divy the stops of each division up among the 5 sets as much as possible and use the single stereo pair for solo reeds that will only have one or notes at a time played on them.
John
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 1:54 pm

johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers. It makes a big difference to my ears.
If you go with stereo, that would take 8 speakers to achieve the same effect.
Reeds and Mixtures especially sound much better using tone matching mode 1 as it eliminates a lot of distortion.
If going stereo, you might try one group of 4 stereo pairs to route reeds and mixtures (maybe some of the richer 8 Principlas as well) to and then the rest in 3 stereo pairs.
I wouldn't do it by division unless you have enough space to physically separate the divisions so that people in the church can hear the physical separation. In the case of sampled organs, I think it is better to get the notes separated into different speakers as much as possible.
If you went with the 4 stereo pairs for reeds and Mixtures and three stereo pairs I would do something like:
Gt Principal 8 - pair 1 Octave 4 pair 2 Fifteenth pair 3 Gt 8 flute into pair 2 4 Flute into pair 1 etc.
Then follow a similar plan for other divisions separating the 8's as much as possible into the three pairs, the 4's .
That way when playing on a single division you have the stops coming from as many pairs as possible and when coupling the same pitch level from each division would be out of different pairs.
If going mono, I would have 5 sets of 4 and one stereo pair placed as high as possible. Divy the stops of each division up among the 5 sets as much as possible and use the single stereo pair for solo reeds that will only have one or notes at a time played on them.
John


Thanks for your input. I’m still learning a lot. We are planning on doing mono. The only divisional separation we were planning on is the outer groups for Great and Pedal, and the inner groups for Swell, Choir and Solo.
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostFri Jan 22, 2021 6:12 pm

What about dividing it like this and using tone matching mode 1 (click on image for full size)?

Using the 4 speakers that I was thinking would be laying on their backs, there are enough to separate the flutes from the Swell, Choir and Solo. Is there an added benefit of doing it this way? I wouldn't have enough to do the same thing with the Great and Pedal.

So basically Great and Pedal groups are divided on the left and right sides, Swell, Choir and Solo are in the middle and the Solo reeds center top. I figured that would give it some sense of the division of a pipe organ.

I appreciate all feedback.

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostSat Jan 23, 2021 11:09 am

After giving it some thought and doing some more reading, I came up with this plan.

The subs are moved to the outside, Mode 2 for Great and Pedal which are on the left and right, Mode 1 for everything else except the stereo pair for the Solo reeds. Speaker number 1 is on the opposite side for the Great/Pedal and Swell/Choir/Solo groups.

The goal is to have as many speakers in use at any given time, but also to give some sense of division that you would have in a pipe organ. Thus, the Great/Pedal on the left and right.

Any thoughts on this revised idea?

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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostSun Jan 24, 2021 9:40 am

I don't think I'd do it like that. You've then got only 4 speakers going on for your main 'weight' - the great and pedal flues.

As has been mentioned, it is fairly easy to audition different configurations these days.
There is no one right answer. Any number of ways can yield satisfactory results.
The routing algorithms do make a difference.
There'd also be a fairly strong argument to just send everything to all speakers and let HW route it itself.

I've done a big church installation with 48 channels. I just did 12 speakers per division, with choir and solo shared. It worked very well. I auditioned the different routing algorithms (though I can't remember which one I landed on). But I didn't try any different stop routings because the speakers were arranged in a divisional fashion.
I've also done an 18 channel installation. This had channels for great and swell, 4 for choir and 2 for pedal. This time the speakers were arranged inside a pipe organ, so again the split divisional speakers made sense.
I did a small installation with only 8 channels for a 2 manual organ. That of course just got the whole organ routed between the 8 channels.
They all sound good.

Best way, if you've got time to play with it, try out a few different ways, like Drew did. I didn't have this luxury as when doing the installation as a job, there's only so long you can spend working on it. If you're going to be there every week, you can play as much as you want.
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostSun Jan 24, 2021 6:01 pm

ppytprs wrote:I don't think I'd do it like that. You've then got only 4 speakers going on for your main 'weight' - the great and pedal flues.

As has been mentioned, it is fairly easy to audition different configurations these days.
There is no one right answer. Any number of ways can yield satisfactory results.
The routing algorithms do make a difference.
There'd also be a fairly strong argument to just send everything to all speakers and let HW route it itself.

I've done a big church installation with 48 channels. I just did 12 speakers per division, with choir and solo shared. It worked very well. I auditioned the different routing algorithms (though I can't remember which one I landed on). But I didn't try any different stop routings because the speakers were arranged in a divisional fashion.
I've also done an 18 channel installation. This had channels for great and swell, 4 for choir and 2 for pedal. This time the speakers were arranged inside a pipe organ, so again the split divisional speakers made sense.
I did a small installation with only 8 channels for a 2 manual organ. That of course just got the whole organ routed between the 8 channels.
They all sound good.

Best way, if you've got time to play with it, try out a few different ways, like Drew did. I didn't have this luxury as when doing the installation as a job, there's only so long you can spend working on it. If you're going to be there every week, you can play as much as you want.


Thanks for your feedback. I have rethought this a lot with the feedback here. I'm having a hard time overcoming the desire to assign speakers to divisions, but I think I am finally over that!
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostSun Jan 24, 2021 11:21 pm

Since my name came up a few times on this thread, I thought I'd throw my hat in this ring....

I would like to clarify a couple of small things first off....

TubaFan wrote:
johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers.


Partially true. Yes, all mono! Since Hauptwerk affords you multiple "Alt Configs," I have one configuration setup as 6 audio groups, of 8 speakers each, using the Cyclic algorithm as the Main Config. (Remember, I'm still using version 4 at GUMC with plans to update to VI eventually....) and Alt Config 1 is setup as you mention, John, with groups of 4 with Tone Matching Mode 1.

In full disclosure, I am so happy with the way the Primary Config works, that I have not invested the time in setting up all of the organs in Alt Config 1 (using Tone Matching Mode 1 and 4 speakers per group). I initially did this config after not being fully satisfied with the Redlands Casavant Set, thinking it could benefit form some major routing changes. As it turns out, it just sort of "is what it is" and that's a separate conversation.

After spending a lot of time studying Leo's excellent speaker routing spreadsheets, it dawned on me that IN THEORY, the Tone Matching Mode 1 with 4 speakers per group, might actually be an awesome way to go about it - AT LEAST ON PAPER but I haven't taken the time to invest into the experiment like I should! As Danny can attest, I tend to have 2304203958 projects going on simultaneously and its hard for me to focus on one thing for long.

That said, just about any useful info I can add to this thread is already covered in the other thread - which you've already read it sounds like. I would advise mono for sure. If you have a large space, don't over think it! Just do it like you'd expect in an actual pipe organ, as best as you can. Don't worry about ambience speakers, etc. Keep them all pointed/aimed at different directions - much like pipe mouths, you don't want all that sound going in one solid straight line! Reflections are your friend!

The last thing I want to clarify....

magnaton wrote:Review this past thread of a large church install. This link will take to you a great discovery of not lining the speakers straight out.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&p=129767&hilit=array#p129767



The speaker layout in that picture is NOT what ultimately became the "final" arrangement; that was just the first trial and error layout after I realized that flat-to-front, tightly-packed was NOT working.

The current and "final" speaker placement is TOTALLY random! Some speakers are on their sides, some are flat to font, some are shimmed to face slightly up or down, some are turned 90 degrees left or right of center, etc. etc. etc. Basically, nothing is pointed backwards or facedown (obviously) or straight up, but there is NO PATTERN to it. I just went willy-nilly and moved them all around. I also added a third row of shelves on each side, extended each from 12' to 18' long, and spaced the speakers out as much as I could. Don't let them get within a foot of each other - 16 to 24" apart is ideal - otherwise they start to reinforce one another. In my case (and I'll assume yours) I got this mid-low range "bloom" - muddy, blehhh...... and the more stops/notes got added, the worse it got. I initially thought this was due to poor sub crossover, or poor EQ-ing of the overall audio system, but alas, it was speaker placement!
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: Layout and routing for 22 studio monitors

PostTue Jan 26, 2021 6:21 pm

dw154515 wrote:Since my name came up a few times on this thread, I thought I'd throw my hat in this ring....

I would like to clarify a couple of small things first off....

TubaFan wrote:
johnstump_organist wrote:Are you going to do stereo or Mono? Drew of Greenwood Methodist went with Mono and I think he settled on my idea of groups of four using tone matching mode 1 which makes all the notes of any triad come out of separate speakers.


Partially true. Yes, all mono! Since Hauptwerk affords you multiple "Alt Configs," I have one configuration setup as 6 audio groups, of 8 speakers each, using the Cyclic algorithm as the Main Config. (Remember, I'm still using version 4 at GUMC with plans to update to VI eventually....) and Alt Config 1 is setup as you mention, John, with groups of 4 with Tone Matching Mode 1.

In full disclosure, I am so happy with the way the Primary Config works, that I have not invested the time in setting up all of the organs in Alt Config 1 (using Tone Matching Mode 1 and 4 speakers per group). I initially did this config after not being fully satisfied with the Redlands Casavant Set, thinking it could benefit form some major routing changes. As it turns out, it just sort of "is what it is" and that's a separate conversation.

After spending a lot of time studying Leo's excellent speaker routing spreadsheets, it dawned on me that IN THEORY, the Tone Matching Mode 1 with 4 speakers per group, might actually be an awesome way to go about it - AT LEAST ON PAPER but I haven't taken the time to invest into the experiment like I should! As Danny can attest, I tend to have 2304203958 projects going on simultaneously and its hard for me to focus on one thing for long.

That said, just about any useful info I can add to this thread is already covered in the other thread - which you've already read it sounds like. I would advise mono for sure. If you have a large space, don't over think it! Just do it like you'd expect in an actual pipe organ, as best as you can. Don't worry about ambience speakers, etc. Keep them all pointed/aimed at different directions - much like pipe mouths, you don't want all that sound going in one solid straight line! Reflections are your friend!

The last thing I want to clarify....

magnaton wrote:Review this past thread of a large church install. This link will take to you a great discovery of not lining the speakers straight out.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15009&p=129767&hilit=array#p129767



The speaker layout in that picture is NOT what ultimately became the "final" arrangement; that was just the first trial and error layout after I realized that flat-to-front, tightly-packed was NOT working.

The current and "final" speaker placement is TOTALLY random! Some speakers are on their sides, some are flat to font, some are shimmed to face slightly up or down, some are turned 90 degrees left or right of center, etc. etc. etc. Basically, nothing is pointed backwards or facedown (obviously) or straight up, but there is NO PATTERN to it. I just went willy-nilly and moved them all around. I also added a third row of shelves on each side, extended each from 12' to 18' long, and spaced the speakers out as much as I could. Don't let them get within a foot of each other - 16 to 24" apart is ideal - otherwise they start to reinforce one another. In my case (and I'll assume yours) I got this mid-low range "bloom" - muddy, blehhh...... and the more stops/notes got added, the worse it got. I initially thought this was due to poor sub crossover, or poor EQ-ing of the overall audio system, but alas, it was speaker placement!


Thanks for chiming in here! I learned a lot from reading your thread, and you cleared up a few things for me. It also gave me confidence to use Hauptwerk in our church. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you liked working with wet sample sets even for the church. Do I remember that correctly?

I wish we had as many channels to play with as you do, but maybe in the future we will add to it.

I think we are going to start with 2 speakers on either side for the pedal and then 2 rows of 8 speakers each. I will remember your spacing and angle advice! The last 2 are going to go on the top for the big Solo reeds, and possibly all of the Solo reeds.

One configuration I'd like to play with is like this using tone matching mode 1. I'd appreciate yours and everyone's thoughts on it.

2 speakers for Pedal (4 total) on either side
Group 1 lower level, 4 speakers: Swell flues, secondary Great Diapason and Octave, small Great flutes
Group 2 lower level, 4 speakers: Swell reeds, mixtures and celeste
Group 3 upper level, 4 speakers: Great, Choir and Solo flues
Group 4 upper level, 4 speakers: Great and Choir reeds and mixtures, Solo celeste
Group 5 up higher, 2 speakers (stereo pair?): Solo reeds

On the lower level, groups 1 and 2 would alternate, and the same with 3 and 4 on the top. I'd also make speaker number 1 on the left on one level and the right on the other. Does this seem like a good starting point?
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