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Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo organ

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Romanos

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Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo organ

PostThu Feb 25, 2021 2:28 pm

Greetings all,
This is one of a number of threads I'm starting about a project I'm beginning to design and build a continuo-style organ. I've been pining after something similar to what Richard McVeigh did on his channel for a few years now, and I finally got the chance to kickstart the project with the recent purchase of two new OSI manuals.

I'm beginning to think about designing the enclosure and I find myself a bit torn about how to incorporate a speaker system. Richard just uses two tower speakers although he admits certain limitations. I find myself considering a few scenarios and would love to receive some advice from more seasoned users who have accomplished various projects as to what might work best.


Scenario 1A:
Two tower speakers, preferably some def-tech bipolars, but they will have to be smaller/older models as the new ones are getting quite large.


Scenario 2A: smaller/cheaper tower speakers like some of the cheaper dayton audio or monoprice ones that are under 40" tall, and due to their afforable price, putting two facing forward and two facing out to the sides.


Scenario B: pack the box with a hand full of small power studio monitors. Perhaps two facing forward, two facing sideways, and one or two on their backs firing up.

Scenario C: getting a mid-range surround system (save the sub), sending it a basic stereo feed, and then allowing the amp to throw the signal around. LR facing forward, center facing up, "surrounds" facing backwards.

Scenario D: (this one I confess I find rather interesting, but I certainly don't know enough about it) building a series of compartments into the internal structure and mounting in-wall / in-ceiling speakers. This would allow me to place speakers ultimately wherever I want. I could mount speakers in the floor firing up, in the center computer compartment firing out, some facing backwards... etc. They could all be mounted into the structure. All I know is that the backside of these speakers would need to be enclosed, not exposed, so that does increase build complexity. I'm also not sure if they would perform as well without cubit feet of wall around them to act as an infinite baffle.

Scenario E: getting some of the smaller wall-mount maggies and putting them in at angles. I know that they are finicky, but as bipolars renown for their clinical precision (and considering I wouldn't ever need to drive this particularly loud) I presume this could work. I do know they lack low end, however, so I'd perhaps have to incorporate one of the bass panels as well. Their dispersion isn't great off-axis though, so I'm thinking this is ultimately a no-go. At present, I'm not aware of anyone using magnepans for HW. (As an aside, I also considered building a harpsichord-style enclosure, and I'd love to use a small MMG as a soundboard for the mietke. I bet the result would be truly stunning in that context.)


Other musings:
I've also been researching bipolar speakers from companies like fluance. These are the models that are technically designed as surround rears but have two faces angled 30-45º apart. I could imagine two of these firing forward (with their secondary sides angled toward the sides. I could also imagine one of these being laid on top to throw sound up and towards the sides.

I was also considering natural pipe speech. I've wondered if two of the larger speakers often intended as center channels for surround systems might be good with one laying down facing forward and another laying on its back firing up. Natural pipes produce the majority of their sound at their mouths and then out the top of the pipe. Of course they radiate sound all around but those are the two primary places for tonal egress. Consequently I wonder if just two simple speakers in this arrangement might most naturally mimic how sound would fly around the box.

I've also wondered if two downward-firing speakers mounted on either side of the manuals with some sort of dispersion baffle on the floor of the box might also be good. That way no one would be hit with any direct sound, but only that which emanates from the box naturally.


As you can see, there are so many questions to consider! This is why I need your help!
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostThu Feb 25, 2021 10:01 pm

So are you thinking just a R / L 2- channel stereo pair or a R / L pair but each side contains multiple channels? I've been pondering the latter.

Marc
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josq

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 4:01 am

Hi Romanos,

A couple of questions...

* "Continuo-style": does that mean that the organ will have 1-5 stops only and that you will use dry samples?
* What is the size of the room and the audience?

...and a couple of remarks:
* Natural pipe speech: you propose to model pipes as two separate sound sources: mouth and top of the pipe. I think this is difficult. Perhaps you would need separate samples taken at the mouths and tops of the pipes. And how would one model the difference between small and large pipes?
* "no one would be hit with any direct sound" - typically, direct sound is the best you can get from a speaker, that's what most speakers are optimized for (bipolar, dipolar and omnidirectional designs can work well for not too wet samples, if the direct sound and the sound reflected from the wall have similar frequency response). If you put things in front of speakers, or let them point upward or backward etc, the main result will be that you alter the frequency response in a quite unpredictable way, and you may or may not like the result. I would rather do it in a controlled way: start with the neutral, direct sound of the speakers, and use EQ tools (including Hauptwerks per-pipe voicing) to adjust to taste. A possible exception is when you have some people sitting very close to the speakers and some very far away, then it might be somewhat beneficial to point the speakers backward or upward to reduce the volume in the front of the room while keeping it the same in the back.

Finally here's a link to a very detailed review of Magnepans, with lots of images showing dispersion and distortion etc: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... iew.16068/
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Romanos

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostFri Feb 26, 2021 9:26 pm

Thanks all for the replies.

Josq, thanks for that link too; looks like Maggie’s are out.

As for design, I was going to base it around the SP claviorganum. So a few small stops, totally dry.

Im open to simply doing LR, (perhaps duplicated to more than one axis) or just as likely, using the 6 presonus eris e5’s and just making one group of six. I have these on my main organ but want to replace them as I don’t like them. I think the clarity for full samples with reverb is lacking (so is low end) but perhaps they’d be perfectly acceptable in this application.

I agree that direct sound is best from a purely listening perspective, however in this case we aren’t talking about normal toed in listening; we are talking about replicating how pipes throw sound all around in a real box organ, which would be used at gigs and would need to radiate sound more than simply forward.

As for the idea about where pipes speak (mouth and head) I was simply thinking in terms of the genesis of the sound in the case reflecting the same, fully aware that the samples themselves are just normal samples and aren’t actually putting out those specific details. That said, it is interesting to consider that close mic sampling could be done to replicate this effect for this specific application.
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larason2

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostSun Feb 28, 2021 4:16 am

I would recommend getting two Road Warrior style monitors and appropriate stands for them. I have some Yorkville powered monitors, and at the church I go to we have used these with Hauptwerk, and they work very well. In out situation, we have to unpack and pack up the organ and speakers every Sunday, and they have stood up to that very well.
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Romanos

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostSun Feb 28, 2021 6:34 am

larason2 wrote:I would recommend getting two Road Warrior style monitors and appropriate stands for them. I have some Yorkville powered monitors, and at the church I go to we have used these with Hauptwerk, and they work very well. In out situation, we have to unpack and pack up the organ and speakers every Sunday, and they have stood up to that very well.


This is certainly an interesting idea, however I’m worried about audio quality with PA speakers. I’ve used a temporary rig with them a few times in the past and have never been satisfied with the results. They simply don’t tend to have the same level of refinement as other speaker types since their application is more about brute force than anything. Perhaps a detailed eq to flatten them out might solve the problem.

I’ve discovered someone is selling some deftech bp10’s about two hours away from me. I think I might end up snagging those since they are bipolar and have a proven track record with digital organs.
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larason2

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostSun Feb 28, 2021 10:51 am

The Yorkville’s I’ve used aren’t PA speakers. For instance the ones I have at home are the nx25p. They have wooden enclosures, and the sound is very refined, and they do well even at low volumes. You’re right that some of the PA style ones can lack detail. I would try out the monitor before buying if possible.
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magnaton

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Re: Thoughts on designing a speaker system for a continuo or

PostThu Mar 04, 2021 2:54 am

Hello Ramanos:

Referring to your original post, I think Scenario C would be the one I would incorporate. Active studio monitors of decent quality and design offer the best sound reproduction for Hauptwerk IMHO. Of course there are other alternatives that can run a close 2nd and some folks will claim these are even at the same level: high-end headphones, audiophile grade tower speakers, DIY speaker builds, etc. I personally have been impressed and actually surprised :shock: at how well some vintage tower speakers have sounded using HW. 1980s ESS full and mid tower units with ribbon tweeters, older Polk towers, DefTech BP10s (of course) to name a few. I watched the Richard McVeigh "continuo" video again and I guess you can add those tower speakers to the list.

Getting back to Scenario C, investigate the Presonus Eris 3.5 or 4.5 active monitors. I have a pair of the 3.5s my desk with a sub and they sound very good. I've experimented the them on a couple HW rigs just to demonstrate multi-channel output and they can hold their own with select stops routed to them. I like this option because playing a real continuo, you are close to the pipes and can hear the sound in motion. That would be absent with just a pair of tower speakers.

I'm a fan of the Yamaha AvantGrand hybrid piano line. For those not familiar, they use a real moving key action, have transducers on the keybed & pedals, and several speakers of different sizes assigned to specific notes across the compass. The result is the touch, sound, spacial acoustics, and tactile feedback (transducers) of a REAL PIANO minus the strings, size, and weight. With HW's new multiple split points, you can simulate a chromatic or diatonic wind chest design so the player will hear that the virtual pipes are indeed playing in their 'correct' location! Off the bat, I would try 10 small speakers. Say eight or nine Eris 3.5 models and the 4.5 for the remainder for the bass notes. Routing set to Mono. Placement would be 4 facing out, 1 on each side, and 3 facing up under the 'lid' behind the music rack.

Sounds like a fun project. I noticed in Richard's video that were still shots of his instrument performing with an ensemble at 4 different venues. Nice to see maybe an ROI from his build. Do keep us up to date.

Danny B.

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