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Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

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larason2

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 11:46 am

In my opinion, the pointing out isn’t to create a “cathedral” effect, its to diffuse the sound a bit and create more in air mixing. Remember each speaker is reproducing different pipes, and its unnatural to have them all pointed directly at you. I think it’s unlikely you’ll create any dead frequencies with this sort of setup, and the cone of sound coming from each speaker is fairly broad, so you’ll still get some “direct” sound. All rooms reflect some sound, the idea is to optimize this. Too much pointing out and it will sound off as well, the idea is to achieve a sweet spot.
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 1:13 pm

mesch wrote:Hello,
in the meantime I got my speakers. 8 HS7 for the front and 2 HS7 for the rear and 1 sub (going down to 19 Hz at -3dB :) )

As soundcard I use a USB connected Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen which has 10 symmertric line outs. For the sub I use the digital S/PDIF out which connects to a very cheap digital to analogue converter (~20 Euros). The sub is connected to the DA-converter via cinch (I doubt that for the rare occasions where the sub realy has to jump in any difference in sound quality between a 200€ and a 20€ DA converter is audible).

I like the Focusrite because it's simple to setup and very affordable. In case I ever want to extend the system (which I doubt) I could use the ADAT out to connect another device.

One thought that came to my mind. Playing in tutti really is an amazing feeling. The sound surrounds me and immerses me. What I find unpleasant in tutti, however, is the force with which the sounds hit my ears. All speakers are aimed directly at me, so it is ensured that an ideal sound dispersion (especially with regard to the high frequencies) is guaranteed. On the one hand, I have an optimal sound quality. On the other hand, such a setup is exactly not what you experience with a real pipe organ. Instead of being hit directly by sound waves with the force of many loudspeakers, the listener in the church experiences the sound emission much more indirectly and thus more pleasantly.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what a compromise might look like here? To direct all loudspeakers wildly into the room will not be a solution.


Hello Mesch

In my topic “why no vertical channels in sample sets”
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18898
i described the route to my setup.
I was also looking for more genuine reproduction of the sound field off the church by adding speakers in my setup to add hight and lateral space to my organ.
I use mainly the most distant front perpectives off the eight channel sets and use this perspective to feed the side/hight speakers left and right off me in the corner off the ceiling.
The result is amazing adding more space to the sound and also improving the articulation off the organ sound.
I also took the next step and now use seperate speaker pairs for each perspective positioned at roughly the same position as where the recording mics. are situated.
This setup disperses the sound but at a natural way.

Jan
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josq

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 1:19 pm

I refer again to the review+measurements of the HS7:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... tor.19761/

My quick reaction to the sound of HS7 was that it was excessively bright. This was aggravated by lack of much bass. So I pulled out the EQ tools to correct this and other issues:

Once there, the sound was still a bit bright but otherwise, quite enjoyable. Bass now had good tactile feedback and overall fidelity was quite good.

Conclusions
As modern studio monitors go, the Yamaha HS7 cannot keep up in delivering flat and objectively correct response. It does however deliver on industrial design. With a bit of EQ, the sound is transformed and becomes quite accurate and pleasurable.

Without EQ, I cannot recommend the Yamaha HS7. But with EQ, I would.


So, without EQ, I don't think it is surprising that the sound hits you in the face. You'll need some EQ tool (a room correction tool might be preferred because it can help to solve some problems caused by the room, in addition to EQing the flaws of the speaker).

The effect of a toe-in/toe-out can be estimated from the horizontal and vertical directivity plots. Rotating the speaker up to 40 degrees in the horizontal direction will have little effect except for the highest frequencies. Above that, the speaker will sound less bright/more bass-heavy. In the vertical direction, you have about 20 degrees of leeway. Above that, there will be a significant dip around 2kHz.

If you want less brightness, EQ is a more controlled solution.

For a cathredal-like experience, if you have a sample set with 4 or more channels, you can experiment with mixing the direct and distant channels.
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mesch

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 2:36 pm

I don't think it's an EQ problem. It's simply sound waves hitting the ear directly from 8 different sources ( membranes ) when the speakers are directly aligned. While the human ear is sensitive to direction, the sound waves in this constellation only hit the ear from essentially two directions, left and right. This probably corresponds to what was recorded with microphones from the real organ. But microphones also only have a left/right characteristic and thus do not reproduce what would correspond to the true acoustic perception in a church.

Thus, if the loudspeakers are aimed directly at you, you will be hammered by a sound front that will easily overstrain your hearing.

In this respect, I think the idea of different directions of radiation is very good, so that one has the feeling that e.g. the recit radiated by the outer speakers is perceived from somewhere else. I am now trying out, for example, to play the Great and Pedal through the 4 inner speakers and the Positive and Recit through the 4 outer speakers. In addition, the two rears play back everything.

The HS7 are not optimal. The question is whether you notice it at all. Measurements show a dip at 2kHz - what tone corresponds to that with an 8' or 4' register, does anyone know? If so, I'd be happy to try it out, purely subjective of course....
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josq

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostMon Jul 04, 2022 3:22 pm

Do you have a problem with stereo imaging? In a proper stereo setup, you don't hear the sound coming from the left or right speaker, but (on average) from the middle.

If your hearing is overstrained, turn down the volume...
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mesch

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Re: Speaker recommendation (rear distance...)

PostTue Jul 05, 2022 7:49 am

No, I don't have a problem with stereo imaging. Turning down the volume is not an option. Remember, we would like to mimic a "real" organ which has an extremely wide span of sound volumes, starting from a single pipe to tutti...

The first impression from the fact that the speakers of the Recit and Positiv are not directly directed at the organist is that the sound image is much more relaxed and spatial. One has the feeling that the tones come from somewhere else, which I personally find very pleasant. I claim that I am no longer in the position of an optimal sound radiation. It sounds a bit different, but I wouldn't call it worse.

The Yamaha HS7 still offer the possibility to raise the volume by 2dB for frequencies above 2 kHz, which I am currently testing for the outer speakers as a substitute for no longer being in the optimal dispersion cone of the tweeters. I continue to test...
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