It is currently Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:55 pm


More technical issues

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

JonathanL64

Member

  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:30 pm

More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 6:14 am

Greetings all.

I have had a good look through the topics here, but as yet I can't find a solution to three problems with my created sample set for my hybrid organ. They are as follows.

1. Pitch - even using a basic sample such as the Moseley Small Open, when I include it in my hybrid and set the
Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum to the correct pitch as described in the table, I am getting a
different pitch than I have specified. Even if I set the sample mentioned at '8' representing an 8' pitch I am
getting the sample speaking at 4'.

2. Wet/Dry samples - Some stops used are fine for the resonance of a wet sample, but some are totally dry. I cannot see
any way to change this.

3. Stop detuning - Some stops are absolutely fine, but another will detune so when drawn against an in tune stop acts a
bit like a celeste, but not as pleasant!

I have spent hours pouring over the pdf instructions, looking on here and just experimenting but as yet I haven't found a solution. I'm tearing my hair out.

Thank you in advance to those with more knowledge and experience than me in able to solve these issues!

Jonathan
Offline

larason2

Member

  • Posts: 624
  • Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 8:55 am

1: There are actually two XML entries in the CODM that modify the pitch level:

<Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch>

<Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum>

The bottom one is the most important, it should be 8 if the samples are 8, but the top one can adjust it too. If the top one is "16", and the bottom one is "8," then it will speak at 4' as you are experiencing. Usually I leave the top one at "0," and just adjust the base pitch using the bottom one.

Also make sure this is set correctly:

<MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe>

Usually 36 for the first midi note.

2: Being wet or dry is the nature of a sampled pipe. It cannot be changed in the CODM. A way around this is to make the CODM organ, then selectively apply reverb to the dry stops once it is made (assuming you have the advanced version). I can walk you through this if you are interested.

3: Most ranks contain tuning information in their file when they are created. This lets Hauptwerk adjust tuning later on. That's why I usually set <Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch> to "0." If you don't do this, it can create effects like you're experiencing. This can also happen if either of these isn't "0" in the Rank table:

<Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones> <Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones>

So make sure that they are both at "0."

I would recommend downloading my guide: "How to CODM," which I posted on my website. It goes line by line how to program a CODM file, and includes all this information and more:

https://www.exercisesincatholicmytholog ... ank-page-1
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 14525
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 9:14 am

Hello Jonathan,

Assuming you're using the Custom Organ Design Module (CODM) for creating your organ definition file (ODF):

JonathanL64 wrote:1. Pitch - even using a basic sample such as the Moseley Small Open, when I include it in my hybrid and set the
Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum to the correct pitch as described in the table, I am getting a
different pitch than I have specified. Even if I set the sample mentioned at '8' representing an 8' pitch I am
getting the sample speaking at 4'.


For that St. Anne's rank you would want:

Rank.Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum=8 (i.e. 8')
Rank.Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones=0
Rank.Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones=0
Rank.MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe=36
Rank.NumberOfPipes=61
Rank.Samples_MIDINoteNumIncrementFromPipesToSamples=0
Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch=0 (i.e. read the stored pitches from the sample files themselves)

StopRank.MIDINoteNumIncrementFromDivisionToRank=0 (i.e. it will sound at 8', since the rank is 8')
StopRank.MIDINoteNumOfFirstMappedDivisionKey=36
StopRank.NumberOfMappedDivisionKeys=61

See the documentation for those particular settings for full details, via "Design tools | View Custom Organ Design Module ... format documentation".

You could also have a look at the settings for the Rank and StopRank objects in the example CODM ODFs that are installed with Hauptwerk.

If the sample set producer has populated the CustomOrganRank table in the installation package definition file (e.g. [OS-username]/Hauptwerk/HauptwerkSampleSetsAndComponents/OrganInstallationPackages/000010/PackageID000010.InstallationPackageDefinition_Hauptwerk_xml in the case of St. Anne's) then you can find the appropriate values for Rank.Samples_RankBasePitch64ftHarmNumIfAssumedTunedToConcertPitch there.

JonathanL64 wrote:2. Wet/Dry samples - Some stops used are fine for the resonance of a wet sample, but some are totally dry. I cannot see
any way to change this.


To combine ranks from different sample sets satisfactorily you would really need their recorded acoustics to match reasonably well, or for *all* of them to be dry. You can use the following two settings to truncate the release samples of wet samples:

Rank.ReverbTailTruncation_ModeCode
Rank.ReverbTailTruncation_DecayLengthAsMsForMiddleCOn8FtStop

... (or the equivalent user settings via "Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options") but truncating wet samples can't make them truly dry, since it can't remove the reverb from the attack/sustaining portions of the samples. You can't make a dry sample wet except by using Hauptwerk's user settings to route it to a mixer bus to which you've applied an impulse response reverb. (See the "Audio routing and impulse response reverb part 2 (Advanced Edition only): multi-channel audio, multi-channel virtual acoustics, and routing concepts for advanced use" chapter in the main Hauptwerk user guide for how to do that if needed.)

JonathanL64 wrote:3. Stop detuning - Some stops are absolutely fine, but another will detune so when drawn against an in tune stop acts a
bit like a celeste, but not as pleasant!


You should always use StopRank.MIDINoteNumIncrementFromDivisionToRank=0 (=>read pitches from sample files) unless the samples don't have (correct) pitches stored in them but have been tuned exactly to A440/equal.

If you then still get detuning, as a test, try disabling the wind supply model via "Organ settings | Organ preferences", to determine whether your wind model settings in the ODF might be causing it.

[Edit: P.S. I see that larason2 and I replied at the same time -- thanks larason2.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

JonathanL64

Member

  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:30 pm

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 12:40 pm

Thank you, very helpful information, I will check all this through.

larason2 wrote:The bottom one is the most important, it should be 8 if the samples are 8, but the top one can adjust it too. If the top one is "16", and the bottom one is "8," then it will speak at 4' as you are experiencing. Usually I leave the top one at "0," and just adjust the base pitch using the bottom one.


They are both set to 8 but I am still getting the stop at 4'.

larason2 wrote:Also make sure this is set correctly:

<MIDINoteNumberOfFirstPipe>

Usually 36 for the first midi note.


Again this is set at 36.

larason2 wrote:2: Being wet or dry is the nature of a sampled pipe. It cannot be changed in the CODM. A way around this is to make the CODM organ, then selectively apply reverb to the dry stops once it is made (assuming you have the advanced version). I can walk you through this if you are interested.


This will certainly be helpful at some point. What is strange is, the Swell Trumpet 8' is used at both 8' and 4' on the Swell (the hybrid is only using flue pipes because of issues of tuning in the room,) the Trumpet has reverb and the Clarion doesn't.

larason2 wrote:
3: Most ranks contain tuning information in their file when they are created.



I will look at this.

Thanks again, I will certainly look at everything you have said, and hopefully I will both fix the problems and understand the coding better.

Jonathan
Offline

JonathanL64

Member

  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:30 pm

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 12:42 pm

All really usefully again Martin, thank you. See my notes above on a couple of specifics. I will carefully look through everything, there is a lot to take in but I am very grateful for your advice.

Jonathan
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 14525
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 1:24 pm

Thanks, Jonathan. Hope it helps.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

JonathanL64

Member

  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:30 pm

Re: More technical issues

PostMon Sep 05, 2022 2:15 pm

Update

Tonight I have been going through the ranks and stop-ranks and made the necessary adjustments. I can confirm that they are now all at the correct pitch throughout the whole compass.

Thank you for all your help. Tomorrow I will attack the next problem. Time for a rest as tomorrow I'm back to building soundboards for a pipe organ!

Jonathan

Return to Creating sample sets / recording organs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest