It is currently Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:15 am


Question on behavior of continuous controls

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Christian Zurhorst

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:34 am
  • Location: Germany, Stuttgart area

Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostSun Jun 27, 2021 11:53 pm

Hello,

In contrast to the documentation, I try to build a wind model based tremulant as follows:

- Build an harmonic oscillator with continuous controls
- Set the extensions of windchest bellows by the output of the harmonic oscillator

In general it works very well.
Why do I do this? I find it much easier to calibrate then the proposed way of building "tremblants forts" (which reflects the traditional way of building it)

My problem: The oscillator decays to quickly even with the softest damping possible (0.01)

Is there a way of getting around this issue? How can I build a "perfect" oscillator without damping?

Suggestion for future enhancements:
- Have continuous controls as wave form generates (sine, sqaure, saw)
- Have frequency adjustable by continuous control

But that is future music. I would be perfectly happy with ideas to work around my current issue.

Thx, Christian
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 4:38 am

Hello Christian,

I've moved your topic here, since it relates to organ definition (ODF) programming. Briefly (since we only officially provide support for editing ODFs to major sample set producers):

Although Hauptwerk wasn't designed for tremulants to be implemented in that way, I would suggest using a Tremulant object, together with a corresponding TremulantWaveform object, as the oscillator, specifying TremulantWaveform.PitchOutputContinuousControlID to send the output of the oscillator wherever you desire it. Tremulant/TremulantWaveforms are specifically designed to be accurate waveform generators/oscillators, allowing any shape of waveform to be used (even complex shapes). You would then simply create one pair of single-cycle sample files with the desired wave shape(s) to specify for its TremulantWaveform.PitchAndFundamentalWaveformSampleID and TremulantWaveform.ThirdHarmonicWaveformSampleID. Since you would only actually be using the pitch waveform (by sending it to a ContinuousControl) the amplitude and harmonic content waveforms could be all-zeros.

Although I haven't specifically tested it, I think that should achieve what you want, and it has the significant benefits of allowing more realistic shapes than a pure sine, whilst also taking advantage of Hauptwerk's native tremulant model's ability to ramp-up/down the tremulant depths and speeds when starting/stopping.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 6:27 am

This prompts another question. I have an ongoing request from a client to duplicate the effect of what a Rodgers organ can do. Namely when playing a (single) solo stop, it plays without any trem as long as each note, one after the other is played "quickly". Then at the end of a phrase, for instance, and a note is held, tremulant begins slowly and "builds" as the note is held. Further, unheld notes again sound without trem until a note is held. This replicates how live strings, woodwinds are played. Quite a neat effect, no doubt not simple to do within Hauptwerk. Real pipe organs can't do this either.

A future consideration, maybe?

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 7:06 am

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the idea. Whilst interesting, given that it's effectively a synthesizer function and that real pipe organs can't do it, and that Hauptwerk is focussed on modelling real pipe organs, I think that personally I wouldn't consider that as candidate enhancement for Hauptwerk. It's conceivable that someone could implement something along those lines within an ODF, but that isn't something that I'd have time to help with, I'm afraid. Sorry!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 10:26 am

Thanks for that, Martin, no surprise there. Was looking to see if anyone has modified an ODF to do that "feature" or if there was available a synthesisor (which can do this) that could be hacked to be played from a Hauptwerk console?

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 10:41 am

Hello Ed,

Lots of synthesizers (vintage and modern) have LFOs that can fade in on any given synth voice individually after that particular voice's key has been held for a period of time (so as to model string vibratos, for example).I don't think I'm aware of any off-hand where the one held notes affects the behaviour of other notes.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 12:26 pm

Again thanks, Martin. I'm in a learning mode re synthesizers driven by this client's continuing request. I always welcome new things even under these "conditions". Have reached out to Roman Sowa (Midi Hardware) who in addition to manufacturing MIDI hardware, makes a large amount of synthesizer components.

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 12:39 pm

Thanks, Ed. You're very welcome. I expect you can find plenty of generic hardware sound expander modules (e.g. things like the Roland Integra 7 probably do it) with string sounds that behave in that way too.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 597
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 1:15 pm

engrssc wrote:Further, unheld notes again sound without trem until a note is held. This replicates how live strings, woodwinds are played. Quite a neat effect, no doubt not simple to do within Hauptwerk. Real pipe organs can't do this either.

Rgds,
Ed

The Wurltizer in the Alabama theatre in Birmingham has a feature for the Harmonic Flute you can use, when played on the Great it can engage the tremolo with the Great 2nd touch. I think this rank is using an Arndt Dump valve as its dedicated tremolo source. So pressing harder on the key in the Great engages the 2nd touch contacts to activate it. Its a wonderful effect and sounds natural, akin to holding a note with one hand and manually engaging the tremolo stop tab with the other but of course in this case its 'hands free'. There might be other TOs that have incorporated this feature but the Alabama is the only one I know of.


Danny B.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 1:59 pm

That is indeed interesting. I theorized (without knowing if it's possible) for a specific group(s) of solo stops were connected to a normally "off" trem regulator, then when holding a note, operating a kick switch to start the trem. Releasing the kick switch would turn the trem regulator off and operate (as you mentioned) a dump valve. Detecting whether notes were actively playing or being held (automatically) would be neat but probably harder to accomplish.

What started this request, this organist was a guest organist at a church with a hybrid Rodgers (classical) instrument. One song featured a solo Oboe with this trem starting when a note was held. I must say, on the concert recording I heard, that Oboe sounded like it was played by a person playing a real Oboe. Really gorgeous.

With all the wonderful things HW can do. I'm thinking if Rodgers can make such s beautiful sound, why not Hauptwerk?

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 2:21 pm

MIDI Hardware has an interesting Pierdzidelko (sound generator module) containing 4 identical VCOs, each producing 3 waveforms that can be separately mixed to audio output and to modulation matrix. „pierdzidełko” in Polish is a word that can be translated as „a little something that makes farting noises” (Roman is a neat guy with a sense of humor)

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=Pierdzidelko&R2=USD

https://www.midi-hardware.com/instrukcje/PierdzidelkoManual.pdf

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 2:47 pm

magnaton wrote:The Wurltizer in the Alabama theatre in Birmingham has a feature for the Harmonic Flute you can use, when played on the Great it can engage the tremolo with the Great 2nd touch. I think this rank is using an Arndt Dump valve as its dedicated tremolo source. So pressing harder on the key in the Great engages the 2nd touch contacts to activate it. Its a wonderful effect and sounds natural, akin to holding a note with one hand and manually engaging the tremolo stop tab with the other but of course in this case its 'hands free'. There might be other TOs that have incorporated this feature but the Alabama is the only one I know of.


Switching a tremulant on/off from theatre organ second touch could certainly be implemented within a Hauptwerk ODF.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

engrssc

Member

  • Posts: 7283
  • Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:12 pm
  • Location: Roscoe, IL, USA

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostMon Jun 28, 2021 2:59 pm

Would using a kick switch be too difficult as compared to 2T? My Rodgers has 2T but the springs are so heavy it would be hurtful to press down very long.

Presently I use a kick switch for a sostenuto which would seem to be about the same to do as far as an organist's "thing" to think about doing.

Rgds,
Ed
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 13725
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostTue Jun 29, 2021 3:27 am

Hello Ed,

You could currently use a MIDI kick-switch to turn any virtual tremulant (or stop/coupler/switch/etc.) on/off by simply auto-detecting it to the relevant virtual tremulant/switch (e.g. with the 'toggle' option ticked if desired).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

magnaton

Member

  • Posts: 597
  • Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:28 pm
  • Location: Austin, TX

Re: Question on behavior of continuous controls

PostTue Jun 29, 2021 1:39 pm

engrssc wrote:Would using a kick switch be too difficult as compared to 2T? My Rodgers has 2T but the springs are so heavy it would be hurtful to press down very long.

Presently I use a kick switch for a sostenuto which would seem to be about the same to do as far as an organist's "thing" to think about doing.

For the Rodgers at the church, you can use a toe stud as momentary tremolo stop activation. My guess would be one just to the right of the Crescendo pedal for easy access. I don't have a sostenuto kick switch on my instrument but use a toe stud instead as I only play about 2 pieces where that is needed.

Danny B.
Next

Return to Creating sample sets / recording organs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest