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Church installation

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engrssc

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:27 am

Is there any way to mount any spkrs (say 3 way spkrs) on the back side(s) of the arch up front, facing toward the stained glass window on the opposite side of the arch as seen from the sanctuary. These wouldn't be seen (at least not very much) by the congregation, but would face into that area, That would be a natural space for the sound to mix (in the air) before reaching into the sanctuary. If space and budget would permit, you could increase (quite inconspicuously) the number of channels, esp useful if all of these spkrs would be identical. That in air blending really replicates (in a relatively simple way) that acoustical mixing that occurs in a (real) pipe chamber.

These spkr (boxes) could be painted/stained etc to blend in with the decor. And, yes, this requires some construction abilities (scaffold, etc), but well worth the effort in the end result. This "mixed" sound is very realistic, even more so than direct sound with spkrs facing the listener. Been there, done it.

Rgds,
Ed
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pwhodges

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:35 am

engrssc wrote:Is there any way to mount any spkrs (say 3 way spkrs) on the back side(s) of the arch up front, facing toward the stained glass window on the opposite side of the arch as seen from the sanctuary. These wouldn't be seen (at least not very much) by the congregation, but would face into that area,

Getting permission (known as a "faculty") to do such a thing in a Church of England building is far harder than might be expected.

Paul
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ajt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:36 am

Unfortunately this was an idea I explored and tested - the best result was actually an array of speakers under the altar (there's a gap of about 1.5m between it and the east wall) facing upwards and bouncing off the end wall. Unfortunately the choir (people not division) sit in the stalls between the arch and the altar and their biggest complaint on the old organ and my testing was that of being deafened. Unlike sitting close to pipes, sitting close to very loudspeakers is an uncomfortable experience so I can sympathise.

I use the 4 black speakers which hang from the roof for all the quiet stuff on the organ, then route the big great diapasons and all high pressure reeds to the white front speakers. This gives the choir sufficient volume to sing with but doesn't deafen them and the congregation get a lead from the bigger stuff. The quiet stops blend nicely in that more reverberant space and sound very convincing. The big stuff would benefit from a reflection somewhere - I've considered turning the white speakers horizontally a couple of degrees just to get a reflection off the sidewall early on and create some diffusion, but that would need planning permission which I've already been told we won't get. :(
Adrian
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ajt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:38 am

pwhodges wrote:Getting permission (known as a "faculty") to do such a thing in a Church of England building is far harder than might be expected.


Precisely the problem. I have a very reverberant tower space with convenient RSJs to hang speaker arrays off, but couldn't get permission for that either ...
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engrssc

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:39 am

pwhodges wrote:
engrssc wrote:Getting permission (known as a "faculty") to do such a thing in a Church of England building is far harder than might be expected.


Would some lunch and ale help? :o

Rgds,
Ed
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ajt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:42 am

Followed by a nice cup of tea?
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pwhodges

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:43 am

They'd help console you for your failure, I suppose!

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engrssc

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 4:50 am

And I thought the "politics" here was difficult. More power, (not necessarily watts) etc, to you.

To some degree, tho, I can see there being some practical logic to all this. Presently I'm involved with "attempting" to correct some well meaning, very (un)knowledgeable person(s) dabbling with what was once a good pipe organ. As goes the saying, a little bit of knowledge is (horrible). :shock: Oh, well . . . .

Rgds,
Ed
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icrutt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 5:53 am

I think it is necessary to have quite careful controls to try and protect against the consequences of well-meaning but ignorant intervention. So, bodies like C of E dioceses have organ advisors and the like (and of course there are listed building constraints in addition to that - Adrian, which was the problem in this case?)

However, the problem with having a single person responsible for being the expert authority is that notions about what is appropriate in terms of organ building, preservation and modification are rather subjective. After all, (I would argue) even the most historically-important instrument in a church also has to be (if possible) liturgically and musically useful...

Perhaps this is apocryphal, but I was once told of a concert-hall instrument in southern England, restored at great expense to its original mid-19th century state - including the removal of most modern playing aids, and crucially its original pitch... Sounds lovely, I'm sure, but less useful than it might be!

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Ian
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pwhodges

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 6:42 am

Not apocryphal - you're thinking of Reading Town Hall. One of Father Willis's finest and least touched instruments (though smaller than some), in a lovely acoustic. The restoration (by Harrison's in 1999) of the ratchet swell lever and the original pitch were the only changes required to make it as original apart from the blowing engine. Yes, it's no longer at standard concert pitch - but even that is not universally respected, as some well-known orchestras push it distinctly up (I believe some concert halls keep two pianos at slightly different pitches to cope with this). There are regular recitals since the restoration.

Only shortly earlier, real vandalism was fortunately prevented; the council had planned to divide the hall horizontally at the balcony level, leaving the stage and organ in a pit at one end of an architecturally and acoustically ruined space that would truly have been good for nothing. Fortunately a vigorous campaign was able, eventually, to get these plans thrown out.

Reading was my home town, and as a student I once hired the Town Hall for an hour to play the organ with a friend (now well-known in the organ world). It cost me 2/6d (12½p in modern parlance).

Paul
Last edited by pwhodges on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ajt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 6:56 am

The approval we had was for internal work to the console only, no wiring or physical appearance changes.
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icrutt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 9:24 am

Paul,

Thanks for setting me straight! I did my PhD in Reading in the early 2000s, and heard various dark mutterings about what had been done to the Town Hall organ, but obviously didn't have the full story. :oops: Indeed, dividing the hall would have been a disaster.

I must confess I do have misgivings about the pitch - especially from the perspective of amateur groups (orchestras and choirs) who are probably less able to be flexible.

I'm envious that you got to play it! I think probably I have usually been too reticent about asking whether such things are possible. The two instruments I played in Reading were at Wesley Methodist, and the university music department...

Ian
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pwhodges

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 10:08 am

The point about Reading is not so much that it should be a model for how all instruments should be restored (which would indeed be highly contentious), but that the chance arose to preserve possibly the only surviving tonally untouched Father Willis of comparable size and significance - it was and is unique in that respect and deserved very special treatment on that account, which included restoring the pitch so that the original scaling was also restored.

Considering the state of the Father Willis (and HW III) instruments in St George's Hall, Liverpool and Alexandra Palace, and the problems hanging over the future of the Cavaillé-Coll in Warrington Town Hall, I feel that Reading should be applauded for having been prepared to invest in such a museum piece - yes, a museum piece, but a vital one!

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 10:22 am

I see what you mean - I hadn't realised quite how special it is.

Perhaps what's needed is for the instrument to be sampled, and a HW version installed alongside the original (with a mobile console), to have the best of both worlds! :wink:

Ian
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ajt

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Re: Church installation

PostTue Aug 21, 2012 10:50 am

It would be nice if someone were prepared to invest some money in St. Mary's, Southampton. That instrument has had nothing done to it since 1958 (built in 56, Vox Humana swapped for a V Cimbel Mixture). It still has its Infinite Swell and Gradation pedals. Again, there aren't many unadulterated Willis IIIs around.
Adrian
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