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Controlling Real Pipes

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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kzimmer0817

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Controlling Real Pipes

PostTue Sep 10, 2013 8:14 am

I will soon be reassembling my pipe organ. The relay system I have has MIDI capability. I've noticed that a number of pipe organ builders substitute digitally sampled ranks for some of the stops in the pipe organ - especially some very expensive ranks as well as some that take up a great deal of space.

I would love to morph my pipe organ into a small 3-manual organ with about 6 stops per manual. I have most of the pipes.

I was wondering if anyone has combined Hauptwerk with real pipes to create a hybrid. I saw briefly mentioned in the "Features" that HW could be interfaced with real pipes. My thoughts would be to experiment with this after I get my 2-manual pipe organ set up, then supplement with Hauptwerk.

1. I would think that the audio system - amplifier and speakers - requirements would be quite different from the usual person HW setup.
2. I would mostly likely be using HW for a few reed ranks as well as a couple pedal ranks.
3. To complicate things further, I might use HW to supply the bottom several notes of a couple open 8' ranks.

If it's not too much trouble, could someone please describe - conceptually - how this would work or point me to a link where this is described. I would imagine that HW would become the main control for the organ and certain stops would be routed to send signals to a MIDI decoder that would interface with pipe driver boards.

The most complicated might be how to make the bottom octave of a stop virtual with the remainder of the rank real pipe.

Thanks,
Keith
Sincerely,
Keith
Athens, GA
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Doug S.

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostTue Sep 10, 2013 10:27 am

Keith,
I have built a hybrid combining pipes with Hauptwerk. I installed Syndyne console electronics with on board midi capability.Action is electric controlled through programmable pipe driver boards. Very pleased with the results.
I found that using lower pitched pipework and mostly digital upperwork produced the most satisfactory results. Further, I found using a wet sample set (Velesovo) enabled me to ghost the pipework with corresponding virtual stops softened to supply reverberation only very satisfying. http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/user/251
Doug
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James

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostTue Sep 10, 2013 12:09 pm

Hi Keith
I also have a 20 rank pipe organ with a 3 manual console that can control both it and Hauptwerk. I use Artisan input boards for the drawknobs and keyboards. These have midi output that goes to a splitter--midi to Hauptwerk computer in one direction, and the Artisan pipe drivers in the opposite. I can therefore play Hauptwerk organs, my "real" pipe organ, or both at once. The draw knobs and pistons can operate the Hauptwerk organs or the pipe organ, but not both without additional programing. I have extra draw knobs just for the Hauptwerk end, if I want to use additional midi stops with the pipe organ. I have direct electric chests, but electrical pneumatic could work also, with proper programing.

Some thoughts about combining the two systems: Reverberation in the Hauptwerk samples will not match your pipe organ. I suppose that you can play with release tails, or dry sets. I have not tried either, though in theory you could get a match, perhaps with the custom organ design module in Hauptwerk. Adding additional notes to your pipe ranks could also be done this way. Tuning will also be an adventure, as your pipe organ will subtly with temperature changes, and the Hauptwerk samples will not. I think that there are solutions for that by midi suppliers. Speakers can be put in the back of your pipe chambers to help meld the sound.

I have been through a lot of this, and will be happy the help with any further questions.
James
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engrssc

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostTue Sep 10, 2013 4:20 pm

Bob Collins was working at combining real pipes and H/W in his church organ installation http://zionorgan.com/Organs/Opus1/ZionVirtualSkinnerOrgan1.htm He wrote of some of the issues he ran into in several posts on the Forum. Don't know the present status as we haven't heard from him recently.
http://forum.hauptwerk.com/search.php?keywords=Zion+Lutheran+Church&terms=all&author=bcollins&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Rgds,
Ed
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Eric Sagmuller

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostTue Sep 10, 2013 7:39 pm

Hey Keith,

Nice to hear from you on this forum again. I'm still on Diyapason L so get both ends.

I haven't used my pipes for quite a while. I just added MIDI out to my console and could still play the pipes at the same time as HW. To be honest, they didn't sound good together, but that's mainly because I crave the recorded reverb from wet samples sets. Needless to say, the dry pipe sounds didn't blend at all. So I basically gave up on the pipes. Now to just get them moved out of the house and free up 1/2 the bedroom they take up.

But if you can live with a dry sound, I'm sure the pipes and HW would work very well together. I had experimented some with the pipes before HW, by hanging a microphone in the chamber, and running through a DSP to get several seconds of reverb. It actually didn't sound bad, in fact I preferred it over not. It actually made the whole room seem live as it picked up other sounds too.

Have fun with your venture. I wish we all didn't live so far apart. I'd gladly help some fellow organ enthusiasts with my technical ability.

Eric
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kzimmer0817

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostWed Sep 11, 2013 11:46 am

Thank you for the replies thus far. My current set up uses a 1950's era Austin 2-manual console. I retained the original couplers and mechanical combination action. I tapped into the final junction strips for the manuals and pedal as well as the stop contacts and ran cables to Essential Technology's Opus-Two computerized relay. The Opus-Two system has MIDI IN/OUT/THRU, so the console is essentially MIDIfied. I would have to find out how to configure the O-2 system's MIDI aspect to send the proper signals to the HW computer.

I'm going to set up my 2-manual pipe organ as close to the way I had it originally before it got packed up. I'm going to raise my pressure a little to see if the Oboe pipes will play. Interestingly, the free St. Anne's organ contains a few ranks that I would like to add to my organ - particularly the reeds.

I hadn't thought about the reverb in wet sample sets, but I had worried a bit about keeping the digital and pipes in tune with each other. I know the organ builders who augment their organs with digital ranks include a device that can keep the digital ranks in tune with the pipes.

I "think" I have a conceptual idea of how to have the bottom octave of a rank play via HW and the remainder thru pipes; I'm not certain.

I'm also wondering what audio/speaker set up you have used in the hybrids.

I'd appreciate any additional advice you may have.
Keith
Sincerely,
Keith
Athens, GA
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megafisc2

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostFri Oct 11, 2013 9:00 am

Hello Keith,

We have installed several hybrid organs using Hauptwerk. Each one is unique in its implementation. Our earlier systems simply use an existing pipe organ control system with Hauptwerk being used to fill in a few digital stops. More recently however, we have used Hauptwerk as the organ's entire control system. In each case, I carefully analyze the existing pipework and select a sample set whose voicing will seamlessly blend with the pipes. In one recent job, the customer had a five rank Wicks dating back to the mid 1950's. We eliminated the pipe expression and made the pipework the Great division. We used Hauptwerk for the Swell and most of the Pedal. The results are amazing.

In each case, I have written a Custom Organ Definition file. Indeed, in doing so it is easy to provide bottom octaves, etc. In fact, in one case we had one pipe that was damaged beyond repair so we just filled one sample in for that pipe. I cannot tell which note it is even when I'm in the chamber tuning!

It is certainly encouraging to see others embrace Hauptwerk and recognize its potential.

All the Best,

Mark
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steve till

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostFri Oct 11, 2013 9:25 am

Even without using the Custom Organ Definition Module it seems it is possibly in HW Advanced to
tell it to load only a certain range of notes, so that for example a tenor C rank of pipes would just play
from tenor C up, and you could load a similar HW rank and tell it to load only the bottom 12 notes,
and the two stops, the pipes and HW bottom 12, would both turn on by that one draw knob.
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kzimmer0817

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostFri Oct 11, 2013 10:19 am

Mark and Steve - and others,
Thanks for your information. There's a part of me that has been wanting to keep the pipe organ as "pure" as possible - as if I'm trying to win an award from the pipes-or-nothing crowd for the best residence organ. I'm coming to the conclusion that the purpose of my own residence organ is to bring me enjoyment. I don't need to impress professional organists. Lay people are easy to impress with all the pipes. I hear, "how did you ever figure out where all the pipes go?"

That said . . . I will be attending a meeting in the city where I attended medical school. Hoping to play again the old Austin organ that was in the church I attended while in med school, I contacted the organist. This year, they installed a new Cornel Zimmer pipe organ that uses 28 pipe ranks from the old Austin, 12 ranks of new pipes, and 22 digital ranks using Walker Digital. I'm looking forward to seeing how the digital blends with the pipes.

Gee, what a rabbit trail. I'm currently using the Opus-Two control system from Essential Technology. It has MIDI capabilities, so my console is MIDI-fied. I would have to figure out how to program the O-2 to send some signals to the output cards and others to Hauptwerk via MIDI. I'm having trouble contacting the O-2 person, so I may have to scrap the Opus-Two system and go to something else if I decide to merge Hauptwerk and Pipes.

I've read enough of the HW Manual as well as the CODM manual to be certain that it "can" be done. As I said in the beginning:
1. if I can get adequate support for the O-2, it will probably remain my "initial" control system so long as it can be programmed to send MIDI info to HW at the same time as it controls the pipes.
2. if I can't get adequate support for the O-2, I can still set the organ up as it was using the current disposition and simply tap into the keying circuits to re-MIDIfy my console to support HW in order to add additional ranks. Basically, my console would be playing two separate keying systems in parallel.
3. as an alternate to #2, I would have to come up with a way to control both, either (a) using HW as my main control system if it can be configured to send keying signals to pipe drivers or (b) purchasing a different keying system (Master) for my pipe organ that generates MIDI signals that can be sent to HW (Slave) for the digital ranks.

Anyway, I probably just wasted a bit of bandwidth in my rambling. I'm clearing out the area where I will install my pipes. A friend admonished me to quit worrying about augmenting, expanding, or changing my pipe organ and get the blankity-blank thing set up and playing. Then, I can decide what I want to change.

Thanks for your advice and patience,
Keith
Sincerely,
Keith
Athens, GA
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organtechnology

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Re: Controlling Real Pipes

PostFri Oct 11, 2013 1:12 pm

Additional PM sent.

I have worked with Opus-2 and have successfully driven HW from the MIDI output of a two-manual OPUS-2 console that was also driving a pipe organ. If you are otherwise happy with the Opus-2 (i.e. it already puts out the correct MIDI signals) then there is no reason to discard it and it is a LOT of work to replace the control system in a pipe organ.

Let me know if I can help with the Hauptwerk part of the system.

Pax,

Thomas
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
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