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Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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rainyglade

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Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostWed Dec 15, 2021 9:37 am

I have noticed a delay between pressing a key and actually hearing the note on my computer. I bought a snazzy new laptop with a touch screen, and an i5 cpu with 4 cores, thinking the elderly computer I was using was the problem. However, I still hear a lag between pressing a key on the organ console and hearing the note on the computer. It's even worse when I hook up the organ's speakers to the computer's sound output.

I'm using a Rodgers 245 organ with MIDI, with St. Anne/Mosley. I can't play anything fast because I get confused between what my brain and fingers are doing compared with what I'm hearing. Seems like I'm restricted to playing stately slow pieces - no toccatas or lively music.

My working theory is that the MIDI connection in the organ is a slow speed - after all, the organ console is >30 years old. Is there anything I can do to speed things up on my present setup?

TIA
Louise
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mnailor

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostWed Dec 15, 2021 10:27 am

It's more likely that you're not using a good quality audio interface with ASIO driver. If you're using a PC sound card, that can cause ​latency. Please see the current Hauptwerk 6.0.2 user guide, pages 16 and 260.

If you are already using ASIO, there are a couple of Hauptwerk settings that can affect latency. Please read pages 261
through 263 of the 6.0.2 user guide for that.
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ldeutsch

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostWed Dec 15, 2021 11:41 am

Louise,

The good news is that the problem is NOT likely in your Rodgers console. You can check this by attaching any MIDI synth to the console and playing it from the Rodger's keyboards. I'll bet this will work just fine. I have a similar vintage Rodgers console and I have no problems with its MIDI.

It is also possible that the problem is not In the MIDI interface to your computer - though this is worth checking. I cannot speak to the sound card issue as I am a Mac user and I do not use sound cards.

It is possible that you are simply not used to the naturally slower speaking of Hauptwerk samples with respect to Rodgers samples. Rodgers (and other commercial digital organ manufacturers) carefully edit their (completely dry) samples so that they speak very quickly. They assume (rightfully so) that the audio effects for transient pipe speech will be enhanced by the acoustics of the room in which the organ is installed. Since Hauptwerk samples are usually recorded further from the pipes and include room acoustics, they naturally speak more slowly. This is part of the pipe-organ-like experience in Hauptwerk. You should get used to playing with these small delays just like you would when playing a pipe organ in a large space with the console far from the pipes. I still recall playing a concert in Italy once where the delay to half the organ was on the order of 1/4 second. I still, with some practice sessions, managed to get through some very fast music.

Les
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mnailor

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostWed Dec 15, 2021 12:14 pm

Kindly check your HW latency on View / Large floating control panels / Audio, MIDI and performance and tell us how many milliseconds it says. Thanks.

St. Annes speaks quickly, albeit not quite as fast as Rodgers samples do. It would be hard to hear any serious delay in the samples if configured properly.
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rainyglade

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostFri Dec 24, 2021 1:42 pm

mnailor wrote:Kindly check your HW latency on View / Large floating control panels / Audio, MIDI and performance and tell us how many milliseconds it says. Thanks.

St. Annes speaks quickly, albeit not quite as fast as Rodgers samples do. It would be hard to hear any serious delay in the samples if configured properly.


I don't see anything specifically labeled latency on that window; I do see Sound Delay under CPU with a value of 85.3 ms. Is that what you are referring to?
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mnailor

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostFri Dec 24, 2021 2:17 pm

Yes, that's the one. 85 ms is excessive -- no wonder it feels unnatural. Like your console is about 96 ft from the pipes at the speed of sound.

What is your audio interface make and model? What device does Hauptwerk say it's using for audio channels in General settings | Audio devices and channels? What buffer size and sample rate is set? Those are the things that determine audio delay.

Did you read the user guide pages I referred you to above and do the practices discussed there? Most decent ASIO devices can do 10 or 20 milliseconds delay if you use the right settings and have an adequate CPU.
Last edited by mnailor on Fri Dec 24, 2021 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostFri Dec 24, 2021 2:19 pm

Hello Louise,

Yes -- latency is another term for sound delay. 85ms is a lot, and I think means you must have a DirectSound driver selected. On the 'General settings | Audio device ...' screen, select your audio interface's ASIO driver instead, or if you don't have an audio interface with its own ASIO driver, then you try downloading and installing the freeware ASIO4All (when Hauptwerk isn't running), configuring it to use your output device, then re-launching Hauptwerk and selecting it as the audio device on the 'General settings | Audio device ...' screen.

If needed, see the 'Performance tuning: Buffer sizes, latency, and audio sample rate' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide for more details (pages 261-263 in the current v6.0.2 version).

Edit: P.S. I see Mark and I replied at the same time.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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rainyglade

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 11:23 am

Thanks for all of the information received so far. I have downloaded ASIO4All but can't figure out how to use those drivers on my realtek sound card or to find ASIO drivers for my card. When I find the folder where ASIO4All is located, there are a couple of .dll items, one for 64 bit. I'm guessing that I need to use those in my sound card settings, but while exploring the Sound options on the control panel and device manager, I can't find a way to switch over to those drivers or to use ASIO drivers with my realtek card.

I also located an external sound card here: https://www.amazon.com/PHOINIKAS-External-Headphone-Microphone-Desktops/dp/B07FP8PG9N/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=96EcH&pf_rd_p=29505bbf-38bd-47ef-8224-a5dd0cda2bae&pf_rd_r=Z6Q0ZEEATA7NXM8CCZVW&pd_rd_r=d2efc374-3707-4dfe-aa64-13ae6886179f&pd_rd_wg=aCeu6&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m It came up on a search for "ASIO Sound Cards" at amazon. If I can't get the RealTek card to use ASIO, would this be an option? Or are there other suggestions for an ASIO external sound card?

TYA
Louise
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mnailor

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 11:41 am

From page 16 of the Hauptwerk installation and user guide, here are some reputable brands many people use. I would avoid buying anything else unless someone responds with favorable experience using it.

Current audio interfaces from the following ranges are popular with Hauptwerk users on both Macs and PCs:

• MOTU AVB, Thunderbolt, and USB interfaces.
• RME AVB and USB interfaces.
• PreSonus Thunderbolt and USB interfaces.
• M-Audio USB interfaces.

(Not all PCs support AVB natively, but the RME Digiface AVB interface allows AVB audio interfaces indirectly to connect via a PCs’ USB 3 port. Likewise, not all PCs have Thunderbolt ports, but PC Thunderbolt cards and adapters are available. Please check with the maker of your audio interface and PC to ensure compatibility.)
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mnailor

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Re: Delay of sound on Hauptwerk computer

PostMon Jan 03, 2022 11:59 am

A number of people use Focusrite as well. There are also various tutorials and articles about setting up ASIO4ALL that might help you. I just googled it, but haven't used it...

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