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Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording files

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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Don Springer

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Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording files

PostSat Jan 01, 2022 11:04 am

Does anyone know of a midi editor that can be used to edit Hauptwerk "Recording Files" that are midi? So far I find that the file will no longer play if I attempt to edit it. Has anyone found one that would allow you to edit notes and still allow Hauptwerk to play the file afterwards?
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jerrymartin

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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 6:43 am

This one, for windows, is free and good for basic touch-ups.

https://www.midieditor.org/
Jeremiah Martin,
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 8:27 am

I suspect that the problem is to do with the way you are editing MIDI data, rather than with the editor used. For example you need to know whether a file is MIDI Type 0 or Type 1; according to sweetwater.com:

“Type 1 files contain separate information for each track. For a Type 0 file, however, all the tracks are merged into a single track, although MIDI channel information is still retained. When a Type 0 file is loaded into a sequencer, it will take each channel’s information and put it on a separate track”.

I believe Hauptwerk produces Type 0 files, so if, after editing, you save your file as Type 1, there would be problems playing it back in Hauptwerk’s own MIDI recorder.
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mdyde

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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 8:43 am

Hello organsRgreat,

I just checked to remind myself, and Hauptwerk saves MIDI files in 'type 0' format, but it should be able to load MIDI files in either of types 0 or 1 format.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Don Springer

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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 8:51 am

Thank you very much. Midi Editor worked like a charm. My other editor corrupted the stop changes so that nothing played unless you hit a piston manually. I appreciate all the help and responses! Happy New Year!
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 9:09 am

I've had issues editing midi files myself. I have one sampleset that, for whatever reason, ciphers from time to time, on a certain pedal note, but it's not my console as this does not happen on any other organ, and it's not the sampleset either as the problem is not consistent. There must be some weird glitch in the xml or something. I don't know, but it has ruined a good take or two and I've never had luck when I've tried to fix it in post. Perhaps it was the type 0/1 issue. It's been a good long while since I've tried though, so perhaps I should try again with another program.
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am

Thanks Martin. When I last edited a Hauptwerk MIDI file I needed to check which type it was, but maybe that was because my editing software needed to know. Is Hauptwerk’s ability to play back Type 1 files new since Version 4, or has it always been the case?
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostSun Jan 02, 2022 12:16 pm

Thanks, organsRgreat.

organsRgreat wrote:Is Hauptwerk’s ability to play back Type 1 files new since Version 4, or has it always been the case?


Hauptwerk's MIDI recorder/player was new in v4 (it didn't exist prior to that), and the file types it records/plays haven't changed since then.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Charles Braund

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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostWed Jan 26, 2022 1:33 am

Possibly unrelated but along the same lines.
Recently, I needed to resample some stops with convolution added and with exactly timed multiple releases for the very shortest notes - say 1/4 second and 1/8th of a second.
I created a Midi file in Cubase which played all of the notes that I needed and this runs perfectly for all of the notes either in HW or in Cubase. However, I also needed to change stops once one stop had been finished, switch off the previous stop and engage the next one so I could leave the thing running for the whole division or organ..
The individual stops were programmed in with the channel number, the stop number and for "on" 127 and 127. For switching off, the same message is sent again but with 0 and 0. I am using the NRPN protocol although I could use other means. ie; under NRPN it would be; 16, 58, 127, 127 (in separate lines) and then the same again but with the 0 setting. This is then followed by the next stop number and runs again.
So yes, it works fine for most of the time and will run anything from two or three stops to seven or eight. But sometimes, it will not cancel the selected stop out and will not select the new one so I end up with several stops resampled on the same stop which is a lot of time wasted.
If I stop the playback of the midi file and start again at a point after the stop that remained "stuck" on is passed, then the file runs through for several more stops correctly but it may stick on another one instead. All of the NRPN instructions are correct throughout. The stuck stops are generally random or may stick on one particular stop each time the file is run or it can be different each time the file is run. So there is no rhyme or reason behind this.
I've tried running it with different sequencer programs though as yet I haven't run it through the HW midi recorder. But then, the file that the HW recorder would send would be identical to the external sequencer midi file in any case.
Occasionally I have come across the same problem both with the HW midi sequencer running or Cubase when playing through a midi piece with stop and piston changes as well as swell box positions. It's much rarer but still happens occasionally. However, it is also completely random so that on one run through everything will run correctly and on another it won't.
Sometimes it doesn't switch the one stop off and runs through the others as normal with the stuck one still engaged or sometimes it just stays with the stuck stop without engaging or cancelling any others in the sequence.
I have tried altering the order of the stop numbers from sequential to random but it makes no difference. However it will often do it on a different stop - it's not necessarily the same stop every time.
It obviously isn't a fault with the Midi file run by the sequencer (whichever one is used) because the settings are perfectly correct and sometimes it runs perfectly for the whole re-sampling where it engages the right stop exchange throughout and it isn't obviously a fault / mistake in the NRPN settings.
I'm really stumped as to what is causing this.
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostWed Jan 26, 2022 4:36 am

Hello Charles,

[Topic moved here.]

As a test, I'd suggest trying something other than MIDI NRPNs/RPNs for the stops (assuming that you don't specifically need to use the Hauptwerk MIDI recorder/player implementation for your purposes).

MIDI NRPNs/RPNs are actually comprised of a string of MIDI control changes:

http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm

... and some MIDI sequencers have a habit of re-ordering control changes occasionally (e.g. after quantising them to their smallest time division, then sorting them in CC number order, depending on their exact timing), resulting in NRPN messages becoming garbled or changed. Apple's Logic does that, and Cubase used to, although I thought they'd fixed that (but perhaps not).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Charles Braund

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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostWed Jan 26, 2022 12:32 pm

Dear Martin,
I think that your suggestion that the sequencer processing is at fault may be a key to the answer. It doesn't seem to matter which editor is used. I did notice that if I copied the NRPN instructions to another position under Cubase for instance that sometimes the order of the NRPN's changed randomly without anything actually being moved. Of course, I changed them back so that they were in the correct order but it may be that since all the NRPN messages started in the exact same position ie: 1.1.1.1, , 45.1.1.1 or similar that Midi itself gets confused. It shouldn't with a 31+ Kbaud rate but this may be the case. This might imply that it is the inability of Midi itself to process things correctly that is the nub of the problem rather than any anomaly with whatever sequencer / editor is being used. I don't quantize the messages in any way so they are running at maximum process speed.
I'm going to try staggering the stop control message so that the sequence runs as say 67.1.1.0, 67.1.1.1, 67.1.1.2, and 67.1.1.3 for example. This may clear up the problem.
Equally, as you say it may be that it's one of those tiny little glitches that the likes of Cubase haven't sorted out yet - probably because it's something that's fairly rarely used. However it would seem unlikely that all sequencers tried so far would suffer the same problem. I think it's a case that Cubase, HW or whatever etc. can't address the problem because it is fundamental to the Midi protocol alone.

Anyway, the original topic was about which editor to use. I have answered this to some extent. I use Cubase but I also use other platforms as I have said. As long as the editor / sequencer is capable of showing / registering all messages including all controllers no matter what they are, then almost any editor will do and changes can be made accordingly. However, some editors are rather too basic (the midi file readers built into some of the commercial organs are an example). Certainly for a sequencer designed to merely play back notes and perhaps a couple of other controllers such as volume etc. messages concerning things like pitch bend and some of the other more esoteric control messages would not have been programmed into the sequencer's ability to read them: They would be totally irrelevant to running an organ in any case. Although the messages in the Midi file might be there, they will not register or be read as a matter of course.
I may be wrong here but I would surmise that any editor has to be coded to recognise information and therefore will only recognise the midi messages that have been written in the software to recognise and accept in the original design.
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostWed Jan 26, 2022 1:04 pm

Charles Braund wrote:Dear Martin,
I think that your suggestion that the sequencer processing is at fault may be a key to the answer. It doesn't seem to matter which editor is used. I did notice that if I copied the NRPN instructions to another position under Cubase for instance that sometimes the order of the NRPN's changed randomly without anything actually being moved. Of course, I changed them back so that they were in the correct order but it may be that since all the NRPN messages started in the exact same position ie: 1.1.1.1, , 45.1.1.1 or similar that Midi itself gets confused. It shouldn't with a 31+ Kbaud rate but this may be the case. This might imply that it is the inability of Midi itself to process things correctly that is the nub of the problem rather than any anomaly with whatever sequencer / editor is being used. I don't quantize the messages in any way so they are running at maximum process speed.
I'm going to try staggering the stop control message so that the sequence runs as say 67.1.1.0, 67.1.1.1, 67.1.1.2, and 67.1.1.3 for example. This may clear up the problem.
Equally, as you say it may be that it's one of those tiny little glitches that the likes of Cubase haven't sorted out yet - probably because it's something that's fairly rarely used. However it would seem unlikely that all sequencers tried so far would suffer the same problem. I think it's a case that Cubase, HW or whatever etc. can't address the problem because it is fundamental to the Midi protocol alone.


Thanks, Charles.

Specifically, the problem in Apple's Logic, and formerly (and conceivably still currently) in Cubase is/was that the sequencer would (inevitably) quantise the NRPNs' component CC messages to the sequencer's minimum time division (which is very small -- much, much smaller than one time signature beat). That in itself is no problem. However, it would then sort the CC messages into ascending CC-number order within each of those time minimum time divisions. Hence, depending on the timing at which the component parts of the NRPN were recorded, Logic may corrupt the NRPNs by switching the order of the CC messages around. For example, if the start of one CC message gets sorted so that it then plays back before the end of the previous one then the messages will probably no longer be valid. I raised it with Apple a few years ago, but they don't plan to do anything about it. I think not many people use NRPNs (although some hardware synthesizers, sound modules, etc. do), so presumably NRPNs aren't a very high priority for them. It isn't a problem in the MIDI protocol itself -- it's a problem in the way that some sequencers record and play MIDI NRPN messages.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Midi editor that works with Hauptwerk Midi recording fil

PostWed Jan 26, 2022 1:09 pm

Thanks Martin,
That would most likely be the answer I reckon. Easily sorted with minor adjustments once you know the cause but hard to fathom out if you don't.

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