It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:03 am


Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 5:41 am

Anyone out there ever get a Rodgers 602 pistons to work with HW? I have tried on several occasions and it will not auto detect the pistons at all. Once I got something to sort of work, but it messed up the manual directly above it, and then when I cleared it and tried again, back to not recognizing.

There are 10 pistons with two memory levels for a total of 20 pistons options

I have a 602 manual and under MIDI features the following:

Receive Program Change on Great Master Channel:
1-10 = General pistons 1-10
20 = General Cancel
31 = memory 1
32 = memory 2


Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated

Scott
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 6:01 am

Hello Scott,

I don't have first-hand experience with Rodgers organs, but if the organ has a MIDI SEQ port as well as a MIDI OUT, you might possibly find that that it transmits more useful data from its MIDI SEQ port, so I'd recommend trying having that one connected to the computer (instead of MIDI OUT).

Without Hauptwerk running, you could then use MIDI-OX (Windows) or Snoize MidiMonitor (macOS) to see exactly what MIDI messages the pistons are actually sending to the computer. To be usable, each piston needs to send a distinct MIDI message (e.g. a distinct MIDI program change message per piston), and the piston always needs to send the same MIDI message each time you press it (without varying according to the digital organ's internal stop states or its stored registration, for example).

If, when a piston is pressed, as well as the piston message (e.g. MIDI program change) the Rodgers is also transmitting a list of its internal stop states, then that's likely to prevent Hauptwerk's auto-detection from being able to identify the desired piston message from the stop-state messages. However, if that's the case you could potentially configure the MIDI settings for the virtual piston manually.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 6:14 am

mdyde wrote:but if the organ has a MIDI SEQ port as well as a MIDI OUT, you might possibly find that that it transmits more useful data from its MIDI SEQ port, so I'd recommend trying having that one connected to the computer (instead of MIDI OUT).


This organ has just MIDI IN/OUT/THRU no MIDI SEQ port :(

I will download the Snoize MidiMonitor and try and find out what is going on. I will do some research on manually setting vs. auto detect which I have never done as well.

Thanks Martin, have a direction to go in.

Scott
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 6:35 am

Thanks, Scott.

Hope it helps.

There should be no need to configure any settings manually as long as the Rodgers isn't sending multiple MIDI messages from a piston press (e.g. stop state messages).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

ldeutsch

Member

  • Posts: 628
  • Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 pm
  • Location: Chatsworth, California, USA

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 12:14 pm

I checked my files and found an owners manual for the Rodgers 602. This model does not have a separate MIDI out for a sequencer - there is only one MIDI out jack. However, there is a way to disable (and re-enable) MIDI information from the output - so perhaps someone has left the organ in the wrong state. You can find this owner's manual online here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/english/pdf/callings/music/organ-manuals/OrganManual_Rodgers_Model_602_eng.pdf?lang=eng

I hope this helps.

Les
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 12:20 pm

Les

I already have the owners manual.

The problem is I don't understand MIDI beyond auto detect. In the original message I posted what I found in the manual and don't know what to do with that information.

Scott
Offline

organsRgreat

Member

  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:30 am
  • Location: England

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 03, 2022 12:56 pm

Scott -

You don’t necessarily need to understand MIDI messages to make progress with this problem. If you copy and paste what shows up in Snoize MidiMonitor, somebody on this forum will be able to tell you what is going on. There are various types of MIDI message – some contain data showing which note to play – these are unlikely to be the ones you need for pistons. The sort you do need will be called Controller, Control Change – something like that. Hope that helps a bit.
Offline
User avatar

ldeutsch

Member

  • Posts: 628
  • Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 pm
  • Location: Chatsworth, California, USA

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostWed May 04, 2022 10:49 am

Scott,

I am happy you already have the owner's manual.

Of course, you should first test the MIDI out to verify there are signals as others have indicated. If the signals are not present, then I suggest you reset the organ to its default MIDI settings. This process is explained on page 16 of the manual.

Les
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostThu May 05, 2022 6:55 am

So I ran the Midi app and pressed pistons 1 thru 10. Pressing them seem to generate the same results, and of course will not work. The following is what the app generated and it is greek to me.

Scott

15:16:59.410 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F F7
15:17:03.315 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 0D 00 00 00 00 00 00 13 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 00 00 20 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 5F F7
15:17:04.530 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 4D 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 10 10 00 00 20 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 1F F7
15:17:05.426 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 08 6D 00 00 00 00 00 00 13 18 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 50 00 00 28 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7E F7
15:17:06.707 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 08 6D 40 00 00 00 00 00 13 18 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 50 00 00 28 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3E F7
15:17:08.405 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 08 05 00 00 00 00 00 00 13 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 54 00 00 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 F7
15:17:08.406 From USB MIDI Interface Control 12 Channel Volume (coarse) 23
15:17:09.620 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F F7
15:17:09.647 From USB MIDI Interface Control 12 Channel Volume (coarse) 127
15:17:10.677 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 08 65 42 10 00 00 00 00 10 38 11 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 10 44 00 00 28 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 29 F7
15:17:12.166 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7F F7
15:17:13.638 From USB MIDI Interface SysEx Roland 44 bytes F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 08 6D 4A 00 00 00 00 00 13 38 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 54 00 00 28 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 10 F7
15:17:13.639 From USB MIDI Interface Control 12 Channel Volume (coarse) 23
Offline
User avatar

ldeutsch

Member

  • Posts: 628
  • Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:02 pm
  • Location: Chatsworth, California, USA

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostThu May 05, 2022 2:26 pm

These look like Rodgers MIDI exclusive messages - one sent for each of your piston pushes. The header is always

F0 41 10 30 12

which is correct. The remainder of the message should contain the state of each control (stop, coupler, term...) on the organ. I expect that you have some stops captures into some of the pistons, hence explaining the different messages you have generated. This is all explained din the mammal (page 36 in this case.)

However, I would have also expected to see a more standard "program change" message (or something similar) for each piston. Thes are not present in your data, and that worries me.

Some Rodgers models have a "piston mode" which tells the pistons to generate the simple message. Your model must have something like this since the manual claims you can control another organ from your console using pistons.

I suggest you try to put the organ in "Local Off" mode, as explained on page 16 of the manual. It sounds like this mode will disable the internal voices and force the controls to generate these other simpler MIDI messages.

Les
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 5:33 am

ldeutsch wrote:I suggest you try to put the organ in "Local Off" mode, as explained on page 16 of the manual. It sounds like this mode will disable the internal voices and force the controls to generate these other simpler MIDI messages.


Thanks Les, but will this alter any saved MIDI connections with the HW and the Rodgers? i.e. will I have to reset the connection with the manuals and all the stops on the rocker tabs on all the organs?

Scott
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 6:45 am

Hello Scott,

Even if changing a setting within your Rodgers did stop it sending the other MIDI messages which you'd already auto-detected successfully, you could always just change the Rodgers setting back again to restore them.

However, note that when using a digital organ with Hauptwerk it's important that you *either* auto-detect its stops *or* its pistons (assuming you could get its pistons to send piston MIDI messages), but not both, otherwise Hauptwerk's combination system would 'fight over' the states of the stops with the digital organ's internal combination system. See the "Playing Hauptwerk live from a digital organ" section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (pages 261-262 in the current v7.0.0 version) for full details.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

SKresge

Member

  • Posts: 115
  • Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 am

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 7:09 am

mdyde wrote:However, note that when using a digital organ with Hauptwerk it's important that you *either* auto-detect its stops *or* its pistons (assuming you could get its pistons to send piston MIDI messages), but not both, otherwise Hauptwerk's combination system would 'fight over' the states of the stops with the digital organ's internal combination system. See the "Playing Hauptwerk live from a digital organ" section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (pages 261-262 in the current v7.0.0 version) for full details.


Martin,

Thanks, just read the section and I didn't realize I must select one or the other. Must decide which is more important.

Thanks again,

Scott
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15444
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 7:39 am

Thanks, Scott. You're very welcome.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline
User avatar

IainStinson

Member

  • Posts: 1391
  • Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:08 pm
  • Location: NW England, UK

Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 8:41 am

When read Martin's reply and reread the manual pages referenced, I wondered how this covered my digital organ where I use the physical stops to control virtual stops and the physical pistons are used with HW's and or the virtual instrument's combination system without problems.

I think that to clarify the position it is perhaps worth noting that:
If the digital organ's stop controls send a recognisable, distinct and consistent midi code for each physical stop control and If the digital organ's combination system can be set so that the pistons send a recognisable, distinct and consistent midi code for each pistons AND so that the digital organ's combination system does not make any changes to the physical stop controls on the digital organ, then the digital organ's stops may be autodetected to operate the virtual instruments stop controls and the digital organ's pistons may be autodetected to operate the virtual instruments pistons and / or Hauptwerk's master pistons.

I think the manual does not really make this (quite common) case clear.


Iain
Next

Return to Audio / MIDI interfacing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests