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Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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SKresge

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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 10:25 am

ldeutsch wrote:I suggest you try to put the organ in "Local Off" mode, as explained on page 16 of the manual. It sounds like this mode will disable the internal voices and force the controls to generate these other simpler MIDI messages.


Les,

Tried to put the organ in "Local Off" mode and no luck nothing has changed, still won't recognize and the rocker tabs etc. stayed the same.

Scott
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mdyde

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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 10:29 am

IainStinson wrote:When read Martin's reply and reread the manual pages referenced, I wondered how this covered my digital organ where I use the physical stops to control virtual stops and the physical pistons are used with HW's and or the virtual instrument's combination system without problems.

I think that to clarify the position it is perhaps worth noting that:
If the digital organ's stop controls send a recognisable, distinct and consistent midi code for each physical stop control and If the digital organ's combination system can be set so that the pistons send a recognisable, distinct and consistent midi code for each pistons AND so that the digital organ's combination system does not make any changes to the physical stop controls on the digital organ, then the digital organ's stops may be autodetected to operate the virtual instruments stop controls and the digital organ's pistons may be autodetected to operate the virtual instruments pistons and / or Hauptwerk's master pistons.

I think the manual does not really make this (quite common) case clear.

Iain


Hello Iain,

Do you mean that within your digital organ there is some setting by which you can effectively disable/disconnect its internal combination system (i.e. so that its pistons never affect the states of its stops)? I'd never heard of a digital organ where that was possible (unless removing its internal electronics and rewiring it, etc.).

What make/model is it, if so?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 5:35 pm

Whilst my Phoenix console needed needed some changes to the hardware to get the pistons to send midi note on / note off codes when the pistons are pressed, I understand that some later Phoenix organs can, by selecting an option, send codes which identify which piston is pressed, rather than sending the status of the stops after the piston is pressed.

I picked up, from Les’ comments in this thread, that some Rodger’s organs can be set to send piston press codes rather than the state of the stops. I found this online.
f desired, the T787 can transmit Program Changes when combination pistons are pressed onthe organ. These messages only communicate which pistons are pressed, not the status ofstops and couplers.


I wonder if some of the Viscount and Wyvern organs don’t also include a similar function?

I understand that some ‘midi consoles’ from Content, Mixtuur and others send unique codes when pistons are pressed (but I accept they are not ‘digital’ organs).

I have probably overstated the case (“quite common”).

Iain
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostFri May 06, 2022 8:54 pm

Sending PC or Note on/off messages, instead of a list of stop state changes, when pistons are pressed is only half the issue.

My former AG3200 organ did that much just fine. The problem was that pressing a piston changed the organ's stop states internally (to all off since I cleared the piston registrations). That meant the lighted drawknobs didn't match the stop states in HW, so pushing or pulling the drawknob would do nothing or do the wrong thing. The timing of the piston's effect on the organ vs HW MIDI output's made a random mess of the drawknob states, which made their next actions unpredictable.

It wasn't possible to use drawknobs and pistons in the same piece, although both would work separately as long as you cancel everything when changing between pistons and drawknobs.

Of course, my current MIDI Works console has no drawknobs so that problem is gone.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostSat May 07, 2022 3:37 am

Thanks, Iain/Mark.

Yes -- I'm aware that some digital organs (e.g. some Rodgers models) can optionally transmit 'piston' messages as pistons are pressed, instead of a lists of stop-on/off messages. but to my knowledge they still affect the states of the digital organ's stops, giving the problem that Mark mentioned (i.e. potentially timing-dependent and erratic results). To be usable reliably one would normally need to be able to disable the digital organ's combination system entirely (so that the digital organ's pistons never affect the states of its own stops at all), but I haven't heard of any digital organs which have the ability.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostMon May 09, 2022 9:15 am

So I am assuming that since the "Local Off" didn't work on the Rodgers itself, there is nothing else I can do to make the pistons work rather than the rocker tabs?

Wish I could somehow have that option, at least to get the combination stepper advance to work to change easier. The novation launch pads on the side are sometimes not an option.

Scott
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mdyde

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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostMon May 09, 2022 2:02 pm

Hello Scott,

I've just had a quick read through a copy of the Rodgers 602 manual, and my understanding from that manual is that it can *receive* MIDI program change messages to trigger its own pistons (internal combinations), but I don't think it can send MIDI program change messages (or any other usable type of message, i.e. constant and distinct messages per piston) from its pistons. (Its 'MIDI on Great/Swell' stops can be programmed to send user-specified MIDI program changes as you turn those stops on/off, for selecting patches from an external sound expander, but that wouldn't be useful.) I think its pistons will only transmit lists of stop states, which wouldn't normally be usable for triggering Hauptwerk pistons or functions.

Hence unfortunately I suspect that particular Rodgers model's pistons wouldn't be usable with Hauptwerk, I'm afraid.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostMon May 09, 2022 3:10 pm

mdyde wrote:Hence unfortunately I suspect that particular Rodgers model's pistons wouldn't be usable with Hauptwerk, I'm afraid.


Martin,

I was afraid of that. That is not the news I wanted to hear, but appreciate you looking into it for me.

Thanks again!

Scott
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostMon May 09, 2022 3:47 pm

Since the local model idea apparently does not work, I think there is still an way for you to use your pistons - as long as you do not use your stops.

Disconnect the audio from the Rodgers so that its internal sounds are silenced.

Then, program each piston so it activates a unique stop - one for each piston and all different. At this point, each of your pistons will generate a unique MIDI message - which happens to be a Rodgers exclusive message/

Then, you can use HW's autodetect feature to train it so that these messages trigger HW's pistons. This should work, though I have not tried it myself. All the Rodgers organs I have ever used with HW have a mode for piston MIDI transmission that yours seems not to have.

Les
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostMon May 09, 2022 5:14 pm

That could work if HW associates the sysex stop off with the same virtual control as stop on, or allows the stop off to be separately detected as input 2, since pressing the same console piston twice sends alternating messages to turn the console stop on and off.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 10, 2022 3:49 am

Thanks, Scott.

N.B. If you do want to experiment with Les' suggestion, after programming the single and unique stops to each of the Rodgers combination pistons, (for any given organ) make sure that you use "Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard" with (just) the "Reset MIDI/key trigger settings for all organ controls for this organ" before trying to auto-detect your Rodgers' 'pistons' (which would actually auto-detect the stop-on/off messages for the single/unique stops that you'd programmed to its pistons), so as to ensure that no virtual stops are auto-detected to any Rodgers stops, to avoid the two combination systems fighting with each other. I.e.if using Les' approach (assuming that you could get it to work) then you wouldn't also be able to use the Rodgers stop controls with Hauptwerk.

Also, during auto-detecting of the Rodgers piston you would want to press the relevant Rodgers piston (to turn the Rodgers stop on), then also manually turn the Rodgers stop off again, before clicking the Done button on the auto-detection screen, so that Hauptwerk hears both the 'on' and 'off' messages for the Rodgers stop that you'd stored to that Rodgers piston.

However, unfortunately I suspect the approach still wouldn't be satisfactory in practice because any given Rodgers piston could only be pressed once until some other Rodgers piston had been pressed (or the Rodgers General Cancel piston, or you had turned the Rodgers stop off manually), otherwise subsequent presses of the same piston wouldn't send any MIDI messages at all (because the Rodgers stop would already be on). I.e. you wouldn't normally be able to press the same Rodgers piston several times in a row, as you would usually want to be able to do for stepper '+1' pistons, for example.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 10, 2022 5:30 am

Martin & Les,

I will not be attempting what Les suggested. As stated in an earlier post, I am not really comfortable with anything beyond auto-detect, and there are too many variables and unknowns for me to risk a try.

Thanks for your time and suggestions, for the time being stuck with the Launch Pad.

Thanks again,

Scott
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 10, 2022 5:42 am

Thanks, Scott. You're very welcome.
Best regards, Martin.
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Re: Rodgers 602 Piston Recognition

PostTue May 10, 2022 10:46 am

Scott,

I certainly understand! My training as a mathematician sort of forces me to find solutions to problems - even if they are someone round-about.

Even though I have used my Rodgers organs in "piston mode" from time to time (since as when I am practicing to perform on another person's HW system) I really prefer to connect my stops and couplers to HW using auto detect. I leave the pistons undetected. I then use the Rodger's combination action to control HW. You have 10 general pistons and two memory levels on the 602. This should be plenty for a good organ recital...

Les
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