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Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

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dw154515

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Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 10:29 pm

Check out this short YouTube clip I made that quickly demonstrates the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cOCZTqxeSE

Explanation:

The 16' Montre keeps sustaining after the pedal is released while the Mixture V (played strictly for the sake of comparison) cuts off like its supposed to. This only happens on the G# being played, an no other notes.

The same thing is happening on the 16' Doucaine on the Positif. This time on a D. (Again, played against the Cymbale [functioning correctly] for comparison.)

Any thoughts?

I can't seem to replicate this issue on any other set, or so far, any other ranks or pitches.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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JmG

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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 12:49 am

Hello,
I think I encountered a similar behavior, in my case it was about phantom midi messages. With midi-ox it is possible to view them or with the capture of midi messages directly in Hauptwerk. For me using an arduino based matrix encoding, the addition of pull-up resistance on the pins encoding the columns of the matrix eliminate the problem. This problem was only present for one or two notes...
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mdyde

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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 5:05 am

Hello Drew,

(For my own reference, I see that the levels of all of Hauptwerk's CPU/memory/polyphony meters are very low, so it wouldn't appear to be a problem of lack of resources.)

Please try:

- Exit Hauptwerk, and re-launch it via a 'spare' Hauptwerk configuration ('Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' desktop shortcut) that has factory default settings. (If in doubt, within that configuration use 'File | Revert all Hauptwerk settings to factory defaults', then re-launch that configuration.)

- (Still within that configuration) aside from selecting your MIDI input device(s) and audio device, leave all other settings at their defaults.

- Load the relevant sample set, leaving all rank settings at their defaults.

- Using the mouse, turn on just the Pedal Montre 16 and Pedal Mixture stops.

- If the organ definition has graphical virtual keyboards, use the mouse to click on the virtual pedalboard, to see whether you can still reproduce the problem with that particular note (G#). If it doesn't have graphical virtual keyboards, then auto-detect the Pedal virtual keyboard to your MIDI pedalboard (but don't change or auto-detect any other settings), and see whether you can still reproduce the problem with that particular note.

If you still do see the problem (with that particular G# note on that Pedal Montre 16' rank):

- What sample set is it (or what organ definition, if the organ definition was made by somebody other than the maker of the sample set)?

- Please also try contacting the maker of the set (or organ definition) to report the problem to them, telling them that it occurs even with all-default settings. (If it occurs with all-default settings then it's probably something that they need to tweak within the organ definition file or that particular G# sample file, e.g. the release marker in the sample file, or organ definition settings related to loop cross-fades or release phase alignment.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 10:17 am

If the problem persists after doing Martin's tests then I would add that I have seen similar odd behaviors when a matrix is run too fast as well as with SPI cabling that is extra long and/or routed through a level convertor (3.3v to 5v). In either case it has been significant that the pedal cabling is often longer with more capacitance than the cabling to manuals. Look for a software issue first but be aware of hardware possibilities.
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 12:04 pm

Originally a few years ago with a different pedal decoder, I had this problem - not always - and not always with the same notes. There were times that I tried many so called remedies (shielded cable, etc.). Came the time I thought it was fixed, then it was back.

My final fix, which has lasted over 3 years now, was to use this pedal decoder:

https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=PDS

It is mounted on the pedal board and uses a 4 conductor shielded cable to connect to the Master Controller. I had to adjust the decoder's debouncing feature which I think did the trick. I initially looked at the pedal contacts (envelopes) via a scope and saw considerably more pedal contact bounce as compared to that of the keyboards.

BTW, default debouncing was set to 20ms, but you can change it to one of 10 steps from 0 (good for hall sensors) to about 40ms (for rusty, 50-year old, never serviced contacts). In my case, I set the debounce to 30ms which did not affect the latency.

https://www.techspot.com/downloads/6944-latencymon.html

This decoder also accommodates the 4 expression pedals.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 12:26 pm

Since this is happening:
on the pedal and on a manual division
on only certain ranks
on only certain pitches
on only one sample set

It sure seems like the sample set. It looks like the SP Casavant, which I have also. I'm going to run in and test my organ. I'll let you know.

Edit: I don't seem able to recreate your issue. Do you have the 1.13 update for the sample set installed?

Regards,
Ray
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dw154515

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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 7:25 pm

So today, it’s on different ranks, different pitches, same sample set. This was the SP Casavant. I played for a while using the same config/audio setup in the Salisbury and didn’t discover any issues. So far this seems to be only on that set.

Martin, I will give you suggestions a try this evening.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSat Jun 05, 2021 8:04 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello Drew,

(For my own reference, I see that the levels of all of Hauptwerk's CPU/memory/polyphony meters are very low, so it wouldn't appear to be a problem of lack of resources.)

Please try:

- Exit Hauptwerk, and re-launch it via a 'spare' Hauptwerk configuration ('Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' desktop shortcut) that has factory default settings. (If in doubt, within that configuration use 'File | Revert all Hauptwerk settings to factory defaults', then re-launch that configuration.)

- (Still within that configuration) aside from selecting your MIDI input device(s) and audio device, leave all other settings at their defaults.

- Load the relevant sample set, leaving all rank settings at their defaults.

- Using the mouse, turn on just the Pedal Montre 16 and Pedal Mixture stops.

- If the organ definition has graphical virtual keyboards, use the mouse to click on the virtual pedalboard, to see whether you can still reproduce the problem with that particular note (G#). If it doesn't have graphical virtual keyboards, then auto-detect the Pedal virtual keyboard to your MIDI pedalboard (but don't change or auto-detect any other settings), and see whether you can still reproduce the problem with that particular note.

If you still do see the problem (with that particular G# note on that Pedal Montre 16' rank):

- What sample set is it (or what organ definition, if the organ definition was made by somebody other than the maker of the sample set)?

- Please also try contacting the maker of the set (or organ definition) to report the problem to them, telling them that it occurs even with all-default settings. (If it occurs with all-default settings then it's probably something that they need to tweak within the organ definition file or that particular G# sample file, e.g. the release marker in the sample file, or organ definition settings related to loop cross-fades or release phase alignment.)


Martin,

This only seems to happen on the main Hauptwerk config.

Using default settings on another config, I can’t seem to replicate the issue.

The issue happens when clicking on the virtual pedalboard / keyboard onscreen as well as playing ‘live.’

The troublesome note or rank also seems to change each time you reload.

I don’t mind just resetting the audio/midi settings, but for the sake of curiosity, I’d kind of like to figure it out. Always nice to have this “data.”

For what it’s worth, I am not the least bit upset or bothered by this, as it is easily remedied by resetting to another config. It’s not exactly a big deal. And I kind of find this stuff to be exciting in some sort of odd way.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 5:14 am

Thanks, Drew.

In that case, please:

- First make sure you have the latest patch installed for that particular sample set (SP Casavant), as Ray mentioned (just in case it was a settings-dependent problem that Jiri resolved in the latest version). If so (and you still have the problem):

- Load the organ in your 'spare' configuration. From the 'Pitch' large control panel, note down what the organ's default base pitch setting and default temperament are.

- Exit that configuration, and re-launch your usual configuration (the one that has the problem).

- Use 'File | Backup ...' to create a backup file (which will contain all of your settings and combinations), in case you need to send it to us later, and in case you want to get your settings back to this point in time.

- Load the SP Casavant sample set.

- Verify that you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- On the 'Pitch' large control panel, set the base pitch and temperament back to the sample set's defaults (as previously noted down from your 'spare' configuration which didn't have the problem).

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Load a 'spare'/clean combination set. Just to make sure it's an all-default one, use 'Registration | Revert all combinations to organ defaults'.

- Use 'Engine | Restart audio/MIDI', so as to ensure that the organ is reset (in case something in the combination set affects the organ's default states).

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Use 'Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard' with just the 'Reset organ preferences' option ticked, and all of the other 'reset' options *not* ticked. (That will ensure that all of audio engine settings, such as random detuning and wind supply model settings, are reset to their defaults).

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Re-load the organ via 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio/memory options', highlight all ranks (Ctrl+A on Windows), change the 'Rank enabled' setting to 'No', then change it back to 'Yes' again. (That will reset all of the rank options to their defaults). OK the screen.

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Use 'Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard' with just the 'Reset rank routing ...' option ticked, and all of the other 'reset' options *not* ticked.

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Use 'Organ settings | Reset all voicing ...'.

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem with at least one rank (and verify with the mouse). If so:

- Use 'Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard' with just the 'Reset MIDI ... settings ...' option ticked, and all of the other 'reset' options *not* ticked.

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem, using just the mouse. If so:

- Use 'Design tools | Load organ (with design options)' to load the organ, with all five of the 'Reset ...' options ticked, and with none of the other options ticked. (That will ensure that all remaining organ-specific settings are reset, including any virtual/internal control states that the organ is set to remember between loads)

- See whether you can still reproduce the problem, using just the mouse.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 9:44 am

Wondering, the latest patch etc. is meant for Hauptwerk V 5 and V 6, yes?. Any possible issues along the lines of the "problems" mentioned above using V 4? Which Drew mentioned recently he is still using at GUMC?

As I recall, the problem with the pedal board encoder was with HW 4.21.003. Not saying that version was part of an issue.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 1:40 pm

engrssc wrote:Wondering, the latest patch etc. is meant for Hauptwerk V 5 and V 6, yes?. Any possible issues along the lines of the "problems" mentioned above using V 4?


Since this is my 'go to' sample set for hymn playing at home (which I do regularly), I've used this set on Versions 4, 5 and 6 with no issues. I don't recall any updates for 5 and 6. I did check a bit yesterday to see if I could recreate the issue. This set is a bit dry for my taste, so I have some reverb added, and I thought that might mask the issue if my instrument was experiencing it. I turned off the added reverb and played a bunch of individual notes for a while (concentrating on the ranks and notes mentioned in the first post), but heard no errors. I have not shifted the pitch or temperament at all and am using the set as delivered with some tweaking of individual notes within ranks due to room acoustics.

Regards,
Ray
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostSun Jun 06, 2021 8:02 pm

engrssc wrote:Wondering, the latest patch etc. is meant for Hauptwerk V 5 and V 6, yes?. Any possible issues along the lines of the "problems" mentioned above using V 4? Which Drew mentioned recently he is still using at GUMC?

As I recall, the problem with the pedal board encoder was with HW 4.21.003. Not saying that version was part of an issue.

Rgds,
Ed


This is on my home set up, which is running the latest version of Hauptwerk. It is also using the most up to date patch from SP. This same set works perfectly fine at GUMC (still on version 4.something)

Martin, it may be a couple of days before I get around to going through that list, as I have some other pressing issues going on, but if I find anything conclusive, I will report back. Thanks again for all the details.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Design Engineer - American Sound and Electronics - Indy
https://americansound.cc/
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 1:49 am

dw154515 wrote:This is on my home set up, which is running the latest version of Hauptwerk. It is also using the most up to date patch from SP. This same set works perfectly fine at GUMC (still on version 4.something.


One thought was if something had been changed between HW 4 and HW 5/6 in this regard esp with addition of the reverb feature.


Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Random Notes, On Random Ranks Sustaining

PostMon Jun 07, 2021 3:50 am

dw154515 wrote:Martin, it may be a couple of days before I get around to going through that list, as I have some other pressing issues going on, but if I find anything conclusive, I will report back. Thanks again for all the details.


Thanks, Drew.

(As you probably appreciate), the tests I suggested are effectively just resetting all of the organ settings/combinations/voicing back to their defaults for that organ, but in small steps, so as to try to narrow down which specific area of your settings are giving a problem with that sample set on your system.

engrssc wrote:One thought was if something had been changed between HW 4 and HW 5/6 in this regard esp with addition of the reverb feature.


Hello Ed,

I think it's very unlikely to be due to any difference between v4 and v6 (especially given that lots of other people use the sample set in v6 and have no problems with it, and that it also works properly for Drew in another configuration with all-default settings). Probably it will just be some particular setting that Drew has on his main configuration that is either causing the problem directly, or triggering it indirectly (e.g. in combination with something within the sample set's organ definition or some of its samples, or conceivably some of Drew's MIDI hardware if anything is also triggering virtual ranks directly or triggering keyboard notes multiple times).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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