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Sticking Notes

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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 3:51 pm

mdyde wrote:Also, is your base pitch still set to its default of 428.1 Hz


P.S. Actually, I see that the Metz doesn't explicitly specify a default base pitch, so Hauptwerk would estimate the default based on the ranks loaded, and your value may be different to mine (since I just loaded that one rank). What value is your base pitch set to?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 1:13 am

Dear Martin

Thank you again for attending to my problem, much appreciated. I noticed the stuck note problem a little while ago although I cannot be specific about how frequently it occurred and what triggered it. It doesn’t seem to matter whether I play long or short notes, the problem is easily replicated. I’m using the extended version in case that makes a difference. I’m using original organ temperament and my base pitch is 426.8.

As an experiment, I cleared the pedal and a manual and auto detected the pedal using the manual. The problem still exists. I also checked MIDI Monitor to see if my console was at fault but it is consistently sending note on and off messages so I do not think it’s a hardware problem.

I have prepared a diagnostic file, which I will send to support in case it’s of use.

Thanks so much for your help.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 4:11 am

Thanks very much, Marcus.

I'll work on trying to reproduce it again today using the Metz extended version and a base pitch of 426.8 Hz.

I'll also have a look at your diagnostic file once Francois passes that on to me (which may be a few hours yet, due to the time-zone difference between him and myself).

marcus.reeves wrote:As an experiment, I cleared the pedal and a manual and auto detected the pedal using the manual. The problem still exists. I also checked MIDI Monitor to see if my console was at fault but it is consistently sending note on and off messages so I do not think it’s a hardware problem.


Given that you mentioned that while it's happening you can start the pipe sounding a second time, it won't be due to MIDI. When a pipe needs to stop sounding, Hauptwerk keeps playing the sustaining/looping portion briefly until the harmonic phases are aligned with those of the release sample, so as to avoid an unnatural dip in amplitude between the two (due to phase cancellation). I think what may be happening is that one of the loops in that sample (probably an extremely short loop) is resulting in it taking a while until the next valid phase alignment point is being reached. For bass pipes the valid phase alignment points will inevitably be less frequent, due to the longer wavelengths (although Hauptwerk has an emergency upper limit on how long it will wait for one). The phase alignment points are independent of the output sample rate, and I can't so far see how the output sample rate would have any significant effect on when they'd be likely to be reached (unless conceivably a loop is so short that slight pitch numerical rounding differences are affecting it).

Please first check that the voicing tuning parameter is set to zero for all pipes in that rank (e.g. by using the 'Reset' button on the voicing screen, with the relevant rank and the tuning parameter selected).

Can you then still easily reproduce it by repeatedly playing just that pipe?

If so, if you simply reload the organ (which causes samples' loop playback sequences to be re-randomised), can you still easily reproduce it by repeatedly playing just that pipe? If not, can it be reproduced on one of the bottom-end pipes of that rank?

How about if you re-load the organ via 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options' and just OK the screen? (Doing that will also cause the phase alignment points to be recalculated.) Thanks.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 8:12 am

Dear Martin

I think the problem has been solved! :D

I followed your latest advice, first resetting the voicing (I hadn't done any voicing, I rarely do, but reset everything for good measure) - the problem continued to be replicable. I then re-loaded the organ as per your suggestion and still the problem persisted. Finally, I reloaded the organ via the 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options', and checked the settings for that rank to make sure all releases were loading etc. In regenerating the cache file, the problem now seems to have gone away. I find this a bit strange because I would have expected this to have happened when I reinstalled the organ earlier in the process.

All solved for now, so thank you very for your help in getting it fixed.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostFri Jul 09, 2021 9:30 am

Thanks very much, Marcus.

I've been trying very intensively to reproduce it here today (on a Mac and on Windows), including using your pitches and all settings from your diagnostic file, whilst switching sample rates, re-loading, re-generating the sample set cache, etc., all in various orders, testing with that particular note and also with the other Metz Extended Pedale ranks and their other bottom-end notes. Francois has also been trying to reproduce it, and neither of us have succeeded. I've also gone through all of the relevant Hauptwerk code again, to verify again, for good measure, that nothing in the way that the phase alignment points or loops are saved in the sample set caches has any dependency on the user-selected sample rate or pitch, and I still can find nothing potentially wrong.

To be honest, I too am not sure that the problem has actually been fully solved on your system, since I too would have expected the results to be no different having regenerated the cache this time that when you did it previously (when you re-installed the sample set). I suppose it's slightly conceivably that you might have a RAM board or SSD that have been corrupting a few bytes, depending on where the data happen to end up in RAM on on disk, but it seems unlikely. It perhaps wouldn't hurt to run a RAM test for good measure.

Or perhaps there is simply a very short loop in that sample, and a combination of loop randomisation and pitch randomisation happened to result in it causing a problem (but I would have expected simply re-loading the organ to re-randomise it in that case).

Anyway, if the problem does come back again, then please let us know.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSat Jul 10, 2021 12:55 am

Dear Martin

Thank you to both you and François for your time investigating this. It does seem an odd problem, especially when the sample set has been around for so long. Funnily enough when testing, I noticed that the same bottom D of the Contrebasse sounds much drier than the surrounding notes, almost like it was sampled differently, but that might just be me starting to hear things.

Thanks for the tip about running a memory test, I’ll do that. And if the problem returns, I’ll get in touch again.

It was very kind of you to spend so much time trying to solve the problem, I’m very grateful. You don’t get this level of support anywhere else! Thanks again!
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSat Jul 10, 2021 3:19 am

Thanks very much for the kind words, Marcus.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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WmHurt

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue May 24, 2022 12:15 pm

Similar problems with the Metz set -- it seems that the "note - off" processing is a problem. Some notes stick then then finally time out.

Has anyone resolved this problem? It never occurred on earlier versions of HW. Is it peculiar to this sample set, which is an old one.

Am running a 10cpu iMac Pro with 128GB local ram and displays not showing overloads.
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue May 24, 2022 3:03 pm

Hello WmHurt,

Aside from Marcus, nobody else has had the problem to my knowledge. He was using Hauptwerk v6 at the time, and only had the problem at 96 kHz, and only with some of the deep bass pipes in the Pedal ranks of the MDA Metz and Salisbury sample sets. It wasn't possible for the user to choose/change the sample rate (and thus to use 96 kHz) until v6, which is probably the relevance to Hauptwerk version (if any).

To confirm, do you mean that, as in Marcus' case:

- You only have the problem at 96 kHz, i.e. if you switch to 48 kHz the issue doesn't occur?

- (At 96 kHz) the problem only occurs with the Pedal ranks (and especially the lowest few notes on them), and if several Pedal ranks are drawn then it may occur with one of the pipes but not the others?

- (At 96 kHz) even with your MIDI console switched off (so as to eliminate any possibility of MIDI-related problems), and with just a single Pedal rank drawn, you can reproduce the problem by repeatedly clicking on a particular virtual Pedal key? If so, can you name a rank and key which reproduces the problem for you [e.g. so that I could look to see whether it has any especially short loops in its sample]?

- (At 96 kHz) the 'stuck' pipes always stop sounding by themselves after a few seconds (i.e. they don't stick on forever)?

Also:

- Assuming you're using Hauptwerk v7, does ensuring that the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine: Audio engine processing quality" setting is set to 'Higher' eliminate the problem? (I wouldn't expect so, but it doesn't hurt to check.)

- Does re-loading the organ via "Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options" and just OK-ing the screen [which causes the sample set cache to be regenerated] solve the problem (as it did in Marcus' case)?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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WmHurt

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue May 24, 2022 3:26 pm

The problems is not identical; it occurs semi-randomly on the Metz set where notes will hang on instead of ending as expected. Sometimes the "tail" doesn't seem to quite match the steady sound, but this varies across various notes and stops -- the transition seems discontinuous. I've not tried to isolate it at this point.

Without a good way to demonstrate it, the effect is that of a sticky note that eventually goes quiet. Is not confined to pedal -- occurs on manuals and pedals. The 16' reed on the Positive is a frequent offender -- tenor f#.

System is running HW7 at 96khz. Problem never occurred on earlier HW versions, but those had less capabilities. Would need to try the 48khz to be able discus that option, but to find it working there and not at 96khz seems an unattractive limitation.
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostWed May 25, 2022 4:23 am

Thanks for the update.

Please first try:

- Load the Metz via "Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options" and just OK the screen [which causes its sample set cache to be regenerated, just in case the existing cache file had become slightly corrupted somehow].

- Make sure that you have the "Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine: Audio engine processing quality" setting set to 'Higher'.

Does that solve it? If not, as a test please try setting the sample rate to 48 kHz, just to see whether that does eliminate it (as seemed to be the case for Marcus, although it may simply have been the case that his cache file was slightly corrupted). Does it?

As an aside, in v7, provided that the audio engine quality is set to 'Higher' there's actually no real need to use 96 kHz anyway, since distortion at 'Higher'/48 kHz should already be below the level at which human beings would be able to hear it:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20414#p153140

mdyde wrote:With the 'Higher' audio engine quality option the signal-to-noise ratio is already so high at 48 kHz as to be below the level at which humans are likely to be able to hear any distortion from the audio engine, so although 96 kHz would reduce it a little further there would be no real point in using it -- one almost certainly wouldn't be able to hear the difference. Hence it makes sense to stick with 48 kHz and avoid the huge extra CPU overhead (approximately double) of using 96 kHz, thus freeing up CPU resources for other more important things (e.g. more polyphony, and/or so that the background models and other things can perform better).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu May 26, 2022 9:34 am

Have tested as suggested -- the 48 kHz rate encounters no problems. Sample set runs at least as well as on earlier HW versions. I set up the default HW app to run as 96 kHz and alternate configuration1 to run at 48 khz. Works fine although it means remembering to switch the rates on the audio MIDI setup dialing boxes when changing the configuration selection.

It appears that the general solution to this sort of problem is the lower rate!

Thanks for the support.
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu May 26, 2022 10:59 am

Thanks, and also for the status update.

Just for my information, am I correct in understanding that the problem persisted in your primary configuration at 96 kHz, even after re-loading the organ via "Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory options", i.e. after regenerating the sample set cache?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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