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Sticking Notes

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marcus.reeves

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Sticking Notes

PostSat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 pm

I’ve recently noticed a problem with two MDA sets (Metz and Salisbury) where I get notes sticking. The problem only affects certain pedal ranks, although I’ve not consistently been able to reproduce the problem as the ranks seem to vary. Coupled manuals are not affected: it only seems to affect a single, changeable, pedal rank. Sometimes the stuck note can be cleared by replaying the same note, or sometimes it plays for a second or so and then clears itself. It’s most odd, and only occurs on these two instruments. It only seems to be a problem with MDA sets.

I’m running a 2018 Mac Mini with 64GB, and there are no spikes from the polyphony or CPU, although the problem tends to occur when using fuller registrations. The computer copes comfortably with these sets.

Any ideas as to what could cause this? Could it be related to the harmonic shaping filters, which I’ve read about elsewhere on the forum?
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mnailor

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSat Jul 03, 2021 5:47 pm

Ciphers might be caused by switches in the pedalboard, the MIDI encoder, cable, or interface, MIDI buffer size on the computer, and whether expression pedals are on the pedals' MIDI encoder and in use or even sending a stream of unwanted messages.

It might not be related to the sampleset, but activity related to what you play on the sampleset. I'd start with the devices and connections in the MIDI chain before worrying about samplesets.

I've had ciphers on my bottom manual when hitting a piston while playing it, and when using a swell pedal connected to it. I added all keys off to my general cancel button to stop it quickly, but increasing the MIDI buffer to 4096 got rid of most of my ciphers.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 12:10 am

Thanks for your reply, a hardware issue was my first thought, but surely any hardware issues would affect all sets? This is limited only to MDA sets. I can play the same piece on different sets (non-MDA), without the stuck notes.

Likewise, would not a stuck hardware note would affect all stops played on that note? This is not the case for me, only random pedal ranks are affected.

I should add that I am running HW 6.0.2 using 96kHz and higher quality pitch shifting.
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Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 4:43 am

Hello Marcus,

Please try:

- First double-check, via 'Help | About Hauptwerk', that you are actually running v6.0.2 (just in case somehow you're running an older executable). Assuming so:

- Reboot the Mac for good measure.

- Try re-installing those two sample sets, just in case some sample data had somehow become corrupted on your drive. (In case needed, the downloads are here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17988 .) Make sure you re-install all of the parts of those sample sets. (Re-installing will also cause those organs' caches to be regenerated, which is a useful test just in case the caches had become corrupted.)

- Make sure that when loading those sample sets you have plenty of free RAM. If Hauptwerk's 'Free GB' figure shows less than about 24 GB (given that you have 64 GB), then temporarily change all ranks to load in mono (so as roughly to halve the memory usage), just as a test to see whether that eliminates the problem. Assuming that doesn't solve it:

- As a test, go to the 'Organ settings | Keyboards' screen, and change the 'Input' setting to 'None' for the virtual pedalboard on *all four* of the 'Input 1/2/3/4' tabs. (Doing so will clear all MIDI settings for the pedalboard, and also ensure that it isn't being played indirectly via MIDI floating divisions.) OK the screen.

- Then try playing the organ briefly with some of the same registrations that you were using before (which exhibited the problem) but with all Pedal stops turned on, and verify that the virtual pedalboard is indeed no longer playing at all. (The aim is to verify that you don't inadvertently also have MIDI input configured to any ranks directly, or via bass couplers.) Assuming so:

- Go back to the 'Organ settings | Keyboards' screen and use the 'Auto-detect ...' button on the 'Input 1' tab to auto-detect the pedalboard again, then OK the screen. (You could instead just use right-click auto-detection for the Metz, but the Salisbury doesn't haven't displayed virtual keyboards so the settings screen needs to be used for that one.) Verify that you can still reproduce the problem. Assuming so:

- Just as a test (in case it's somehow related to the CPU struggling, even though you mention that Hauptwerk's 'CPU' meter isn't showing excessive spikes), try changing Hauptwerk to use 48 kHz audio output. Verify that the sample rate has actually changed accordingly on your audio interface.

Do you then still have the problem? If so, do you mean that the stuck notes/pipes stick continue to sound indefinitely, or just that they sound for a bit longer than they should?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 10:44 am

Hello Martin

Thank you for the suggestions. I will follow them and report back.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostSun Jul 04, 2021 12:42 pm

Thanks, Marcus.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostMon Jul 05, 2021 3:10 am

Dear Martin

I’ve now been able to follow all your suggestions, rebooted the Mac, reinstalled Metz, disabled then re-enabled the pedal, and changed the sample rate to 48kHz. Only this last option seems to solve the problem. When I switch back to 96kHz, it returns. I’m definitely running 6.0.2 and the Mac is showing in excess of 50GB RAM free when Metz is loaded.

It tends to be the lowest three notes of the pedals which causes the problem, but the rank can change, sometimes the Contrebasse, sometimes one of the reeds. The sound does not continue indefinitely, but stops after a couple of seconds. Sometimes a couple ranks get stuck, and one stops before the other. Coupled ranks are always unaffected, the problem only affects pedal ranks.

Any further ideas? I could switch back to 48kHz but as this setting is global, that would be a bit annoying.

Thanks for your help thus far.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostMon Jul 05, 2021 4:13 am

Thanks, Marcus.

In that case, as a further test, please try switching back to 96 kHz and set the buffer size to 1024 (and number of buffers to 1), but this time and disable the 'high-definition pitch-shifting' option for those sample sets (so as to try to determine whether the problem is related to CPU load, or 96 kHz specifically).

If you then still get the problem, on the 'Organ preferences | Audio engine' screen, please make sure that all of the options are at their defaults (none of the 'Disable ...' options ticked, and all of the percentage options at 100%). Also select the 'original organ tuning' option for the temperament.

Do you then still have the problem?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue Jul 06, 2021 7:18 am

Dear Martin

I’ve done as you suggested, thank you. I tried last night and had the same problem. I tried again today and still had the problem. Again it only affects pedal tanks and most frequently one of the bottom three notes. As mentioned previously, sets non-MDA sets are unaffected. Metz is the one I’ve been testing. I’m not sure if it’s related to processing power or something else? Metz is resource light in comparison to some other samples I use (Noordbroek and Görlitz for example) and they cope fine.

Not sure what to try next!

Thanks again for your help.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue Jul 06, 2021 7:37 am

Thanks, Marcus.

Just to make certain: you mean you do still experience the problem even when using 48 kHz?

If so, (keeping it set to 48 kHz) please try also turning off the 'high-definition pitch shifting' option, so as to see whether reducing CPU demands further eliminates it.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostTue Jul 06, 2021 8:19 am

P.S. Please also try drawing just a single Pedal rank with which you've previously experienced the problem (and no other stops or couplers) and see whether you can reproduce the problem by simply playing the bottom note on that rank repeatedly. That too would help to determine whether the problem is due to CPU load, or instead due to something specific to the pipe/sample (e.g. its pitch or some loop in it -- those things might only show up occasionally due to the point in the sample at which the pedal happened to be released, and since loops are played in randomised orders).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 11:01 am

mdyde wrote:P.S. Please also try drawing just a single Pedal rank with which you've previously experienced the problem (and no other stops or couplers) and see whether you can reproduce the problem by simply playing the bottom note on that rank repeatedly. That too would help to determine whether the problem is due to CPU load, or instead due to something specific to the pipe/sample (e.g. its pitch or some loop in it -- those things might only show up occasionally due to the point in the sample at which the pedal happened to be released, and since loops are played in randomised orders).


Dear Martin

Thank you for all your assistance in this. Indeed, I have now been able to replicate the problem trying your suggestion above. Using the 8’ Trompette of the pedal, repeatedly playing bottom D, the loop gets stuck for a few seconds. Interestingly, I can replay the note several times whilst the stuck note is still sounding! The problem goes away when I switch to 48kHz and only seems to happen at 96kHz. I do not think it’s a CPU issue though, as neither the polyphony meter or CPU meter lights up at all.

I’m not entirely sure what’s causing this. It only seems to be this one note affected on this rank and only at 96kHz. I’ve made a short clip of the problem.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c-1P0vBLstgziN2t-6WV6k-A

Thank very much for your help.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 12:15 pm

Thanks very much, Marcus.

Please let me see whether I can reproduce it with that particular Metz note (bottom D on the Pedal 8’ Trompette), and investigate if so. That might take a few days, but I'll let you know as soon as I have anything to report.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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marcus.reeves

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Thanks, Martin. I’ll wait to hear.
Best wishes,
Marcus
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mdyde

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Re: Sticking Notes

PostThu Jul 08, 2021 1:58 pm

Hello Marcus,

I've just been spending 15 minutes or so trying to reproduce the problem with that note (MDA Notre Dame de Metz Pedale Trompette 8 bottom D) by playing it repeatedly for random lengths of time at 96 kHz, and haven't experienced the problem so far.

When the problem occurred for you, do you remember whether it occurred after holding the note for a few seconds (i.e. within the main sustaining portion of the sound), or after playing short notes?

Were you able to reproduce the problem reasonably easily and repeatedly with that note, or did only occur very occasionally (e.g. requiring playing the note repeatedly over a long period of time)?

Also, is your base pitch still set to its default of 428.1 Hz, and with 'original organ tuning' still selected as the temperament? On the voicing screen, is the 'All perspectives: overall: tuning (cents)' parameter still set to zero (its default) for that particular note on that rank? Thanks.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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