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Scoped piston problem

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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 10:57 am

I have a number of pistons which I have mapped onto HW scoped pistons at a global level. I have them set up with some of the organs that I play frequently, which involves setting the scope to a group of stops (usually corresponding to a whole division) and then setting each piston individually. I haven't needed to do this for a while, but recently (since upgrading from HW 6 to 6.02) I have run into problems when trying to set up the pistons on an organ that I have previously been playing without them.

What happens is that if after activating the scope setting (either using a physical control or by clicking on the floating toolbar) I then press a scoped piston, every single stop of the organ pops out. The first time this happened it included a Cavaille-Coll Orlage and made a terrible racket before I could find the reset button. This seems to happen whether I press a physical piston corresponding to a HW scoped piston, or if I click on the HW piston on the floating toolbar. For organs where some of the pistons have previously been set up, I only get this strange behaviour when clicking on (or pressing) a previously unscoped HW piston.

At the same time the CPU meter shoots up to maximum for a few seconds and I hear a bit of crackling in addition to the tremulant wind noise and any special effect stops that have activated.

This makes it impossible to use any scoped pistons that I have not previously set up, as well as being a bit alarming if you aren't expecting it.

My computer is a fairly new Dell mini-tower workstation with a 10-core i9 and 128 GB RAM. I am using a MOTU MIDI Epress 128 MIDI interface and a MOTU ultralite Mk 4 audio interface. My keyboards are from Classic MIDI Works in Canada, but the behaviour seems to be independent of physical keyboards as I can reproduce it by clicking a toolbar.

Any ideas?
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IainStinson

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 11:25 am

Hi Julian
I think that if you have scoped master pistons and you engage the scope function and not the set function, when you press a scoped piston all of the stops within the scope of that piston come on to show the scope (pg 117 of the user guide).

Is the default scope all stops / controls of the virtual organ loaded?
(I assume the scope is stored as a part of the organ specific current combination set.)

This could account for the behaviour of the Cavalle-Coll.

Maybe this is of some help.

Iain
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mdyde

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 11:58 am

Hello Julian,

To add to Iain's reply (thanks as always, Iain), note that there were several changes between v5 and v6 affecting how the scoped combinations are used and programmed. Here are the excerpts from the v6 changes section in the release notice which cover the main ones:

Important: master scoped (ranged) pistons now behave differently if the setter and/or scope mode are turned on:
o If both the setter and scope mode are on, then triggering a scoped piston will set its scope;
o If the setter is on, but scope mode is off, then triggering a scoped piston will set its stored registration (within its currently-defined scope);
o If the setter is off, but scope mode is on, then triggering a scoped piston will recall (show) its current scope;
o If neither the setter, nor scope mode, are on, then triggering the scoped piston will recall its stored registration (within its currently-defined scope).

There are new general preferences "Cancel setter (capture mode) automatically whenever capturing to a combination?" and "Cancel scope (range) mode automatically whenever scoping a combination?" for whether to cancel SET and/or SCOPE automatically when capturing/scoping a combination.


As with v4 and v5, the default scope for a scoped piston is global (i.e. if you haven't set a scope to the piston then by default it will affect the states of all stops/couplers/tremulants).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm

Suggestions: Turn down the volume all the way before you set scopes for the first time on an organ. Also, after turning on the Scope button, you don't have to press a piston to look at its scope before using the Setter to set its scope, unless you just wanted to see what scope it has now.
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 5:54 pm

Thank-you everyone, and particularly Martin for explaining how the set and scope buttons interact. I didn't realise (or I had forgotten) that the organ had to be in set mode before pressing the scope button, and I was not aware that the scope button could be used without the set button to show the existing scope of a piston.

The default for scoped pistons must be all stops (i.e. the same as generals) until narrowed down by the user.

I certainly was not aware of how scoped pistons had changed between versions 5 and 6. I suppose I should read the manual before posting here but it seemed very strange behaviour to me, and the associated processor spike misled me into thinking that this was not how it was intended to work.

I appreciate everyone's help for solving this for me so quickly.
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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 6:50 pm

Since we’re talking about scoped pistons, I’m having an issue (the behavior might have been there all along, as I’ve never used scoping much until recently). I’ve noticed that when following the directions in the manual for setting up scoped pistons on any given sample set, and then change to a different combination set (on the same organ), the pistons which I had previously set as scoped aren’t configured that way… so I have to go through the scoping process again. This doesn’t seem right at all; I wonder what I’m doing wrong.

David
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mnailor

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostFri Jul 23, 2021 7:44 pm

JulianMoney-Kyrle wrote:Thank-you everyone, and particularly Martin for explaining how the set and scope buttons interact. I didn't realise (or I had forgotten) that the organ had to be in set mode before pressing the scope button, and I was not aware that the scope button could be used without the set button to show the existing scope of a piston.


>>> Or Scope mode before Set, depending on what you're trying to do.

The default for scoped pistons must be all stops (i.e. the same as generals) until narrowed down by the user.


>>> Yes. Scoped pistons are generals unless you choose a subset.

I certainly was not aware of how scoped pistons had changed between versions 5 and 6. I suppose I should read the manual before posting here but it seemed very strange behaviour to me, and the associated processor spike misled me into thinking that this was not how it was intended to work.


>>> I'm really surprised that suddenly turning on all the stops, couplers, trems, etc would push the CPU to an audio glitch. You have more horsepower than I do!
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mdyde

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostSat Jul 24, 2021 3:28 am

Thanks, Julian.

david515mi wrote:Since we’re talking about scoped pistons, I’m having an issue (the behavior might have been there all along, as I’ve never used scoping much until recently). I’ve noticed that when following the directions in the manual for setting up scoped pistons on any given sample set, and then change to a different combination set (on the same organ), the pistons which I had previously set as scoped aren’t configured that way… so I have to go through the scoping process again. This doesn’t seem right at all; I wonder what I’m doing wrong.

David


Hello David,

Scopes are stored within combination sets, and are per-combination-set. Hence if you want the scope to be the same for all combination sets then you need to set the scopes how you want them in each combination set. The easiest way to do that is to create a combination set to use as a template (with scopes and any other things set how you would want them by default). Then whenever you subsequently want to create a new combination set, you would initially load that template, then edit it as desired for the musical piece, then re-save it with the desired (different) target name each time (so as to avoid overwriting the template).

We do have enhancement requests logged for adding a function that could import/export/copy just certain types/subsets of combinations (scopes, scoped combinations' stored registrations, master crescendo, master generals, etc., based on options) between combination sets, or for potentially adding options to make types/subsets of combinations be stored per-organ, rather then per-combination-set. I will add your notes to those enhancement request logs.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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david515mi

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostSat Jul 24, 2021 10:13 am

Thanks a million, Martin! At least I know I’m not doing anything wrong.

David
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mdyde

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Re: Scoped piston problem

PostSat Jul 24, 2021 10:55 am

Thanks, David. You're very welcome.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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