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Note on/off messages to all stops while loading midifile HW

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musicman1958

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Note on/off messages to all stops while loading midifile HW

PostMon Sep 06, 2021 3:52 am

Hello,

My console has 118 electric stops. When I load a recordered midi to play first all electric stops go on and then off.
After this the choosen registration comes of coarse.
But why send HW first note on messages to all stops and why not only note off messages?
It is irritating now that all stops go on and off before playing the midi file.
Is there a setting to put the note on messages off before recording?
In my midi hardware i see there no setting to do this.
Does HW on default put this Note on Note off messages in the midifile?
If so I could try to cut of then the beginning from the midifile.

Hope someone have a solution.

Greetings Musicman
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mdyde

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Re: Note on/off messages to all stops while loading midifile

PostMon Sep 06, 2021 4:54 am

Hello Musicman,

Whenever a MIDI file starts to play (which was recorded using the same sample set), Hauptwerk first resets the organ (in the same way that happens when you use 'Engine | Reset organ/MIDI', and in the same way that happens when you load the organ).

It does that to ensure that all virtual and hardware stops, expression pedals, etc. are in their default states at the start of the MIDI recording, so that playing the MIDI recording always gives the same result, regardless of what virtual/hardware registration you happened to have drawn prior to starting to play the file.

When Hauptwerk resets the organ each stop will send an 'stop off' message via MIDI (possibly more than once, depending on how the organ is configured internally). It won't send a 'stop on' message for any stop (unless you've specifically set the virtual stop always to default to on).

Perhaps you have each of your MIDI stops configured (either within its decoder hardware, or via your MIDI settings for the virtual stop in Hauptwerk) so that the 'stop on' and 'stop off' MIDI messages are the same, or (likewise) so that the same MIDI message toggles the hardware stop's state (rather than setting it directly to 'on' or 'off'), or perhaps your hardware stop is doing something unusual like sending its previous state back to Hauptwerk's virtual stop as Hauptwerk tries to turn the stop on, resulting in a loop. Alternatively, if you're using a digital organ/console that has its own built-in combination system then perhaps the console's built-in combination actions is also affecting the stop states.

If it's an off-the-shelf digital organ or MIDI organ console then please first make sure that you have the appropriate entry selected for the 'MIDI hardware/console type' setting on the 'General settings | General preferences' screen.

Then, for testing, load the St. Anne's organ (since we all have ready access to that), and use right-click auto-detection to auto-detect the Great Trumpet 8 (for example) virtual stop again, making sure that you turn the relevant hardware stop on and then off again when prompted. Hauptwerk needs to hear both your hardware stop's 'on' message and its 'off' message in order to know what the appropriate MIDI settings would be for it. Also make sure the 'toggle' option is *not* ticked when auto-detecting the stop, and that the option for sending MIDI output *is* ticked.

Now record a quick MIDI file as a test, and try playing it back. Does that stop (Great Trumpet 8) then behave normally (i.e. being turned 'off' as you start to play the MIDI file, but never turning on in that situation)?

If not, what make/model of MIDI console are you using? Or is it something you've made yourself, e.g. as I see you mentioned in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19947

If the latter, you MIDI console's stop decoders/encoders need to be configured so that each stop sends a distinct MIDI message as it turns off (e.g. MIDI note-off on the same MIDI channel/note) from the message it sends as it turns on (e.g. MIDI note-on). Please see also this post:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19922&p=149443#p149443

mdyde wrote:These paragraphs from the 'MIDI implementation' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (page 280 in the current v6.0.2 version) cover recommendations for configuring MIDI channels and event types in your MIDI encoder/decoder circuits, so that everything can then be configured solely via auto-detection, for convenience:

If you are building a new MIDI organ console or new MIDI hardware for Hauptwerk then we recommend that MIDI switches and pistons use MIDI NRPN-on/off messages (on value=127, off value=0) and that if a MIDI switch supports MIDI output (for example, if it is solenoid-actuated or illuminated) then we recommend that it should receive identical MIDI messages to those it sends (thus making it possible for Hauptwerk to configure MIDI output to it automatically during auto-detection).

If you are building a new MIDI organ console for Hauptwerk using MIDI encoder circuitry that doesn't support NRPNs, then we recommend instead using MIDI note-on/off messages for switches and pistons, again ensuring that each MIDI switch receives identical MIDI messages to those it sends (if the MIDI switch supports MIDI output).


For example, if a given hardware stop sends a MIDI note-on message with MIDI note number 34 on MIDI channel 3 as it turns on, and a note-off message for that note number and channel as it turns off, then we'd recommend that the decoder be configured so that when it receives a MIDI note-on message for that same note number and channel it should turn the hardware stop on (by pulsing its 'on' solenoid briefly), and likewise for a note-off to turn the hardware stop off.


It might be easier to configure some MIDI decoders/encoders to use MIDI note on/off messages than NRPN messages, but either type is fine, since either type is 'stateful' (unlike a MIDI program change, for example).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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musicman1958

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Re: Note on/off messages to all stops while loading midifile

PostWed Sep 15, 2021 9:57 am

Hi Martin,

Thank you for your answer and explanation.

My console is using the MRG2 controller with BBS1K encoder from midi-hardware.com. This encoder has 64 contacts for switching the stops manually by reedcontact on each switch.
For the Electric stops (Solenoids did use) Mddp128 Un decoder from Midi Boutique with 120 utputs. For each stop there are 2 outputs (on and off)

Each stop is configured as follow: Primary Input auto adjust Stop or hold midi note on/off midi channel 10 (matching the channel from the BBS-1K) and a midi note number.
The primary output is set Midi note on/off channel 12 from the Mddp uN 128 midi channel 12 which is the midi setting the decoder is listen to. Each stop has a different note number.

Now lets talk to the strange thing that when a sampleset in Hw is just loaded and midi starts the stops on the stopscreen light on and off. I see in Midi ox Note on but also note off messages. But the strange thing is that not all adjusted electric stops light on. How is this possible while all stops configured in the same way.
For e.g. primary output note midi number 42 does not give light in the stopscreen when the samplesets starts and output note midi number 43 does give light! How it can be this difference? Why not all outputs lightning shortly on and off for all adjusted electric stops?
Is this a problem in Hauptwerk or the a problem in the settings of the decoder?
When i press a stop on the stopscreen the electric stop comes out and pressing again back in. So thats works perfect for all the adjusted stops and is not the problem.

When the stopsscreen is lightning short (on/off) in two different stages shortly after each other the electric stops does not go on and off and keeps there off position.
But while playing a recordered midi file then the electric stops are going first on and off before the real choosen registration is comming. So there is a difference in messages in my opinion between starting a sampleset and starting a midifile in the recorder.

Hope you can help me further.

Best regards,
Martin den Boer
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mdyde

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Re: Note on/off messages to all stops while loading midifile

PostWed Sep 15, 2021 2:37 pm

Hello Martin,

The only relevant thing that Hauptwerk does when audio/MIDI starts, is to send 'stop-off' MIDI message from all virtual stops -- it doesn't itself (i.e. directly) turn any of its virtual stops on [unless you've also specifically set the virtual stop to default to on] and it doesn't itself send 'stop-on' MIDI messages from any of the virtual stops. The same applies when starting playing/recording a MIDI file.

I have no experience myself with the MIDI encoders/decoders you mention, but somehow I think you must currently have them configured within their hardware/firmware so that they are doing something strange in that when the are receiving those initial 'stop off' messages from Hauptwerk they are also sometimes sending some 'stop on' and then 'stop off' messages back to Hauptwerk for some reason. Or perhaps some hardware MIDI buffer is getting flooded, causing the MIDI hardware to misbehave in a strange way. Any difference in what happens when audio/MIDI starts and when MIDI recording/playback starts is probably due simply to differences in timing and/or in the in volume of MIDI traffic.

Probably the best thing to do first would be to contact midi-hardware.com and explain what is happening and how you have their hardware configured and connected together and to the computer. They might well know straight away what's going wrong and how to fix it, e.g. perhaps a hardware/firmware setting needs to be changed.

I'd also suggest making sure that you're using a good-quality well-buffered MIDI interface, such as a MOTU Microlite (or some other similar reputable brand). Cheap unbranded USB-MIDI adapters are often the source of MIDI problems.

Also make sure that you have sufficient/reliable power for your MIDI encoders/decoders and USB devices. E.g. perhaps all of the initial 'stop off' messages are causing the solenoids to pulse the off coils, which is drawing too much power and causing the MIDI encoders/decoders to misbehave as a result.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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