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Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

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MPiercey

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Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSat Nov 27, 2021 7:25 pm

I can't seem to get the Perspective feature to work. I have a Dry organ loaded in stereo and set-up and working in Mixer Preset 1 (Not using any Perspectivrs there other than the default one). Everything works fine there.

I also have the same organ set up in Mixer Preset 5, but for this Preset I have the default speaker set up as mono (even though the organ is loaded in stereo - I know it doesn't save any memory, but I want to be able to switch between them fast/easily). I have the main/dry stops routed through Perspective 1 (the default) and they work as expected.

The problem comes in when I try to use Perspective 2 and 3 (2 for the front reverb, and 3 for the rear reverb). I get nothing from either of these. In the Audio Mixer screen, I have the Audio Output Channels/speakers I want to use assigned to a primary bus (starting at bus #0091) and I have an Impulse Response assigned to that bus as well. I have a total of 5 of these set up.

Then in the Audio Mixer Bus Group screen, I have the above 5 Primary busses assigned to a Bus Group

Lastly, in the Rank Routing to Audio Mixer screen, I have all the stops assigned to Perspective 1 (the default) and to Perspectives 2 and 3 (with their appropriate Destination Mixer Buss Group selected for each).

While the default (Perspective 1) works fine, I get nothing from Perspective 2 or 3 - even when I switch Perspective 2's Destination Bus Group to one of the ones in Perspective 1 that I know is working.

It's as though there is a switch for the other Perspectives that is not switched on. I have also gone into the Rank Voicing and Surround screen and make sure the the audio levels for Petspectives 2 and 3 are set to normal. Because I use a large number of channels, I did delete the original routing setup (that came with HW 6.0.2) as they really were more for just simple stereo than what I have.

Can anyone see where I have gone wrong, or am missing something?

Thanks for any input.
Mel.
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mnailor

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSat Nov 27, 2021 8:21 pm

Only perspective 1 is enabled by default. In the Rank voicing screen, you have to set the Perspective mix: ... 2 and 3 sliders to something bigger than 0 to send a signal on perspectives other than 1. To copy the whole signal to another perspective, set it to 100 (that takes using the master slider twice since it stops at 50 the first time).

See user guide page 196, bullet point 2.
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MPiercey

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSat Nov 27, 2021 8:55 pm

Thank you! That was the part I was missing. Much appreciated mnailer.
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mnailor

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSat Nov 27, 2021 9:19 pm

You're welcome. Have fun!
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MPiercey

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 12:11 am

OK, next step. Perspective 2 is now going to the 5 stereo pairs as I wanted, but it is cycling thru them one pair at a time. How do I get it so that all 5 pairs are putting out the same signal at the same time? In other words I don't want them to cycle. I don't see an Algorythm that would do this; or is this done some other way?

Thanks,
Mel
Last edited by MPiercey on Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mnailor

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 2:05 am

I assume you already set up at least 3 bus groups, one (or more) for each perspective, and the perspectives are each routed to the appropriate group. And perspective 2 goes to a group of 5 stereo pairs.

I don't think any of the algorithms will send every pipe of every rank to all 5 pairs simultaneously, if that's what you're asking. Sorry if I misread it. You can get household stereo amps that duplicate one stereo signal to every pair of speakers (intended for multiple rooms).
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mdyde

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 5:12 am

Hello Mel,

To confirm Mark's reply (thanks very much, Mark, as always), there isn't an algorithm that sends a pipe to all of the primary buses in a group simultaneously. However, you could potentially instead just have one primary bus in that group, with no audio device channels selected for it directly, and then send that primary buses to five intermediate mix buses simultaneously, with audio device channels selected for those five intermediate mix buses instead.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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MPiercey

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 10:45 am

Yes Mark,, you understand it correctly, and thanks Mark and Martin. I'll try out the intermediate Buss option today. It would be nice to have an algorythm that sends the same signal to multiple Primary Busses just to keep everything in the same place/done the same way. A future enhancement maybe?

Regards,
Mel.
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mdyde

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 11:27 am

Thanks, Mel.

MPiercey wrote: It would be nice to have an algorythm that sends the same signal to multiple Primary Busses just to keep everything in the same place/done the same way. A future enhancement maybe?


I think I'm going to say no to that one, since the audio engine is designed to stream any given perspective of a pipe to a single mixer bus, and making it handle variable numbers of pipes would be really rather involved for technical reasons (and would potentially add real-time overheads), and I think it would be rare that people would want to do that anyway. Also, in those (rare) cases the intermediate mix buses could be used currently. Sorry!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 12:12 pm

Out of curiosity, why do you want all the speakers to play the same thing? Thanks.
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MPiercey

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 2:32 pm

Mark, using wet/Surround samplesets, the reverb moves around with the with the pipe sound. If one has a large number of channels (as I do) spaced out over a large area, then the reverb does not sound realistic (because it is moving all the time). Sometimes the reverb only comes from one side of the instrument, other times it comes from the other side. The only way to get the full sound scape is by using the full organ.

If one thinks of a real pipe organ instalation, you have the sound of the individual pipes coming from different areas (like with multichannel HW), but the reverb of the building does not really move around like that. This is what I'm trying to create - a flat wall of Reverb sound, with the individual pipe movement.

Regards,
Mel.
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mnailor

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 3:32 pm

Ah, makes sense. I tried that using intermediate buses as mixdowns + reverb (different IR positions) to just a few speaker pairs so the reverb is fixed in space. When I added more than 3 or 4 reverb mixdowns (pairs), it all felt too muddy to me, even with the reverb levels low. With the intermediate buses as reverb mixdowns (I think that's what Martin is suggesting), you can easily change how many speakers you like for reverb, so it should work well with some tuning.

You can use master buses as well as intermediate buses, for up to 16 reverb mixdowns if you're not using them for subs and headphones.

I went back to adding reverb to each primary channel later, even on the surround channels, but my rear speakers are far enough away for me not to notice individual speaker positions in the rear groups. I can see where that might not work for you.
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magnaton

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 pm

Hi Mel:

I had the same "why" question as Mark. Ah, I remember your audio layout as I've referred to it often when talking about the many VPO amplification options. Yours is quite clever and unique. 8)

Another possibility could be your audio interface mixer software. I don't recall which interface you are using. The idea is to simply route the rear/reflection/surround samples to just a single pair but have the interface software monitor or route that same signal to all other other desired rear channels. For example in a recording studio, the vocal channel would be sent to all the necessary channels for the accompanying musicians, most likely headphones but speakers are the same principal. Most audio interface software offer presets so you can easily change back to your original design if you don't like the way it sounds.

Danny B.
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MPiercey

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Re: Need help with Perspectives on multi-channel

PostSun Nov 28, 2021 9:38 pm

Hi Danny, I use 4 of the MOTU 24 i/os, and while there is a Mixer program for it, I would prefer to keep everything in one place as much as possible. Today kind of got away from me, but hopefully I'll be able to get to trying out the reverb this week.
Thanks,
Mel.

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