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Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

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pilotxy@gmx.de

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Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 8:32 am

Hi,

I upgraded from HW4 to HW7 and now I have the Problem that "Generic Midi sys-ex" signals not will be detected.
I tried to set up it manually as my MIDI-Monitor shows the Bytes but this also won't work
My content Celeste sends these signals on some Pistons.

I tried everything and came to the Point that this is a bug of HW7.

Someone a hint or the same Problem?

Thank you Mathias
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mdyde

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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 8:59 am

Hello Mathias,

Thanks very much for upgrading to v7.

I'm sure there are no bugs or changes in v7 above v4 that would be relevant to that. Perhaps your console is also sending some additional MIDI message(s) simultaneously (e.g. also sending MIDI stop on/off messages) that are preventing auto-detection from being able to hear the intended message from the MIDI piston.

Please try:

- In Hauptwerk, on the "General settings | General preferences" screen, make sure that the "MIDI hardware/console type" is set to "Unmodified MIDI digital/electronic organ: Content".

- Load the St. Anne's organ.

- Temporarily turn on the "Diagnostics: log all MIDI messages received and sent" option on the "General settings | General preferences | Advanced ..." screen tab and OK the screen (and OK the warning about performance).

- Without touching anything (in Hauptwerk, and on your Content organ), wait 30 seconds or so, so that the relevant MIDI messages can be identified by their timestamps.

- Still without touching anything else right-click on the virtual St. Anne's Swell divisional piston 1, and select the option to auto detect it.

- Still without touching anything else, press, and then release, the relevant one of your Content organ's MIDI pistons.

- If the 'Done' button has become enabled on Hauptwerk's auto-detection screen then OK it, otherwise:

- Click 'Cancel'.

- Still without touching anything else, use "Help | Create a diagnostic file" and send the resulting to Francois via: https://www.hauptwerk.com/submit-ticket/ . (I think you probably need to be logged into your account on MDA's on-line shop in order to be able to do that.)

That will allow us to see the MIDI messages that Hauptwerk received from the Content, and thus hopefully why the MIDI auto-detection failed.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 10:16 am

Hi,

Thank you for your advice.
I did it like you described but can't send the file with the provided link.

Kind Regards Mathias

http://www.realschule.it/screenshoot1.png
http://www.realschule.it/screenshoot2.png
Last edited by pilotxy@gmx.de on Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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mdyde

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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 10:37 am

Thanks, Mathias.

Did you log into your account on MDA's on-line shop first? My understanding is that you will get that error message if you aren't logged in. Once logged in, I believe you should be able to use that form ( https://www.hauptwerk.com/submit-ticket/ ).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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pilotxy@gmx.de

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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 10:41 am

Yes, now I am signed in and got the same message and additional

"Tickets Available 0/0
Your Past Orders"

No option to send or create a ticket.

http://www.realschule.it/screenshoot3.png
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mdyde

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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 10:56 am

Thanks, Mathias.

I've asked Francois to get back to you about how to get the diagnostic file to us (which might be a little delayed, since it's Easter Sunday).

One other point: in your MIDI Monitor screenshot, MIDI Monitor is showing multiple 6-byte MIDI sys-ex messages sent 'simultaneously' (within the same second). That could potentially prevent auto-detection from working.

What model of Content organ is it? Are you sure that it's actually sending MIDI messages directly from its pistons, rather than strings of MIDI stop-state changes as the Content's own stops change in response to whatever combinations you have stored to the Content's internal system?

To be usable reliably with Hauptwerk each of its pistons each need to be sending distinct, single, constant MIDI messages directly (not state-change MIDI messages from the Content's stops). (Hauptwerk v7 is no different to v4 in that respect.)

For example, if one particular Content piston sends a given MIDI message then you need to make sure that it always sends exactly (and only) that same MIDI message whenever you press it, regardless of the states of the Content's stops, and that no other Content pistons sends that same MIDI message.

Without Hauptwerk running, please use MIDI Monitor to make sure that's happening, pressing each of the Content's pistons in turn, and in different orders, so as to verify that each Content piston is sending just one MIDI message, with each being distinct, and with each piston sending exactly the same MIDI message each time you press it (regardless of any other ones you might have pressed previously, and regardless of the states of the Content's stops).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 11:05 am

Ok, thank you.

The Piston send one

17:59:20.282 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 02 00 F7

and this is the same thing as I get in my HW4 and there it works with no problems. I know, that some Pistons on the content Organs sends problematic midi messages, for example the pistons for stored combinations are wired with the intern store of the content. I have a Celeste 340.

If I press the Combinations 1 Piston there were very much midi Signals sent:

18:01:20.235 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 3 5
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 3 10
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 3 11
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 3 12
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 4 2
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 4 11
18:01:20.239 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 2 4
18:01:20.240 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 2 12
18:01:20.241 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 2 13
18:01:20.242 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 2 14
18:01:20.243 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 1 2
18:01:20.243 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 1 3
18:01:20.244 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 Program 1 11

This hasn't worked in HW4, or I haven't the time to figure it out to work.

But these Pistons I tried to detect worked without Problems in HW4, so where should there be a Problem with the Midi Interface or the Content Midi Signals.

In HW4 it worked. the only Change I made was to update to HW7. If I kew before that there were Problems I never had updated.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 11:18 am

Thanks, Mathias.

Your original MIDI Monitor screenshot (which I think you've now deleted) appeared to show two different highlighted MIDI sys-ex messages being sent from the piston press (within the same second), but I'll wait until we have the diagnostic file from you, since I need to see exactly what MIDI messages the Content sent to Hauptwerk as you tried to auto-detect the piston, which the Hauptwerk log will show.

In the meantime, without Hauptwerk running, please use MIDI Monitor and press each of the relevant Content pistons in turn, and in different orders, so as to verify that each Content piston is sending just one MIDI message, with each being distinct, and with each piston sending exactly the same MIDI message each time you press it (regardless of any other ones you might have pressed previously, and regardless of the states of the Content's stops).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 11:28 am

Hi,

I deleted the screenshoot because they are not necessary anymore. I can link them back if it is important.

Now you could see that these messages are not different, they are the same.


I don't know where here should be the Problem, but I can try.

If I do Auto-Detection with exactly this Piston in HW4 it works and in HW7 it did not.

Kind regaards
Mathias

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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 11:32 am

P.S.

pilotxy@gmx.de wrote:17:59:20.282 From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 02 00 F7


I've just done a very quick test in Hauptwerk v7 for auto-detecting that particular MIDI message, and it didn't appear to auto-detect for me. I'm not sure why, and will need to have a more detailed look, which will take a few hours. I've run out of time today, but will work on that tomorrow. Hence if you want to wait until I've had a chance to look at it properly then I'll get back to you and let you know what I find (hopefully tomorrow).

[Edit: P.S. I see we both replied at the same time.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostSun Apr 17, 2022 11:34 am

Thank you very much and Happy Easter. :D
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostMon Apr 18, 2022 5:57 am

Hello Mathias,

I've had a look through the Hauptwerk source code, and there was indeed a change which was implemented in Hauptwerk v5.0.0 (which also still applies in v7.0.0) whereby v5+ tries to ignore MIDI sys-ex messages specifically if they appear to have been sent by Hauptwerk itself, based on their format. From the v5.0.0 changes section of the release notice:

When auto-detecting switches, any incoming MIDI sys-ex messages that originated from Hauptwerk are
now ignored (for compatibility with MIDI hardware that requires a feedback loop).


That was done as work-around for compatibility with some Classic MIDI Works hardware (e.g. their Lighted Rocker Tab units), especially when chained with other MIDI devices/decoders that rely on Hauptwerk's MIDI console status output system. The problem is that the specific sys-ex format that your Content's pistons are sending is very similar to the MIDI sys-ex messages that Hauptwerk's console status output system sends, causing Hauptwerk to think they're originated indirectly from Hauptwerk, and thus ignore them.

My apologies for failing to remember that change.

For v7.0.1 I'll need to find a way to change the method by which Hauptwerk tries to determine whether a MIDI sys-ex message has originated from Hauptwerk to avoid the format that your Content's pistons are sending. (Once done, we could potentially also send you a 'hot-fix' build with the resulting change, pending v7.0.1's public release.)

Do any of your Content's pistons send MIDI sys-ex messages which:

a) Have lengths other than 6 bytes?

b) Have any value other than 02 in their third byte? If so, do o they have any of the following three hexadecimal values in their third byte: 19, 1A, 1B?

[For my own reference, I see from your diagnostic file that you're using a Mac with AVX2, and also have Hauptwerk's MIDI console status output system enabled.]

Thanks, and sorry again for failing to remember that v5.0.0 change.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostMon Apr 18, 2022 12:08 pm

Hi,

Thank you for your help.

I tried with HW4 very much to get my Content Celeste 340 to control with the thumb pistons. Content say the there is full Hauptwerk Support on their Celeste 340 but for my opinion this is not true.

I got this experience:

- Manuals and Pedals have full MIDI functionality
- Swell have MIDI functionality
- The Rocker Tabs of the Stops could only send MIDI Signals to HW. If in HW a stop will pressed the coresponding Tab would not be enlighted.
- I found no possibility to use the LCD Display with HW

- The thumb Pistons have partially useful Midi functionality: The thumbs for combinations Set generates

Her for example for the Combination Set 1 I get the following Data
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   Control Chan 4 General Purpose 1 (coarse) 2
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   Control Chan 2 General Purpose 1 (coarse) 8


For the Combination Set 2 I get the following Data

Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   Control Chan 4 General Purpose 1 (coarse) 3
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   Control Chan 2 General Purpose 1 (coarse) 12


I don’t know if HW can handle this Midi-Data or if it could be implemented. Michael maybe you could see if this Hw can handle?

As described at the beginning of the topic I used in HW4 7 Pistons which give „sysEx“-Data back. These are in the Content Celeste used for the Acoustic-Settings and to chose wether the sound should be „symphonic“ or something else like.

Here I get the following Data

Piston "Console"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 03 00 F7

Piston "Front"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 03 01 F7

Piston "Church"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 03 02 F7


Piston "Baroque"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 00 02 F7

Piston "Classic"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 01 00 F7

Piston "Roman"
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 02 00 F7

Piston "Sym."
Code: Select all
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1   SysEx      Non-Commercial 6 bytes   F0 7D 02 03 02 F7


a) All Midi-Messages have 6 bytes.
b) No.

If you need the Midi-Data for all combination Pistons I can post these if there is a Possibility to use these Pistons in HW too.

[For my own reference, I see from your diagnostic file that you're using a Mac with AVX2, and also have Hauptwerk's MIDI console status output system enabled.]


Yes I have an iMac 2021 with the last intel i9 Processor and 72 GB Ram. Should I change something in HW?

Thank you very much
Kind regards
Mathias
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostMon Apr 18, 2022 1:41 pm

Thanks, Mathias.

For v7.0.1 (and a 'hot-fix' build that I could send to you) I could make v7 auto-detect the sys-ex pistons on your Content that could be auto-detected in v4, but I'm afraid I can't offer to be implement additional support for your Content's other controls/pistons (if indeed it were even possible, which I suspect it isn't, based on your description).

I.e. I can make v7 work with your Content as well as v4 did, but that's all, I'm afraid.

pilotxy@gmx.de wrote:As described at the beginning of the topic I used in HW4 7 Pistons which give „sysEx“-Data back. These are in the Content Celeste used for the Acoustic-Settings and to chose wether the sound should be „symphonic“ or something else like.

Here I get the following Data

Piston "Console"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 03 00 F7

Piston "Front"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 03 01 F7

Piston "Church"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 03 02 F7

Piston "Baroque"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 00 02 F7

Piston "Classic"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 01 00 F7

Piston "Roman"
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 02 00 F7

Piston "Sym."
From ESI MIDIMATE eX Anschluss 1 SysEx Non-Commercial 6 bytes F0 7D 02 03 02 F7


Is it just those (seven) Content pistons which did auto-detect in v4 but don't auto-detect in v7?

Or if there were any other sys-ex pistons (which did auto-detect in v4 but don't in v7), could you also tell me the MIDI messages that those others send?

pilotxy@gmx.de wrote:
mdyde wrote:[For my own reference, I see from your diagnostic file that you're using a Mac with AVX2, and also have Hauptwerk's MIDI console status output system enabled.]


Yes I have an iMac 2021 with the last intel i9 Processor and 72 GB Ram. Should I change something in HW?


No need -- your iMac's fine. (I just noted it my previous reply as a note to myself for what type of 'hot-fix' executable I would need to build for you for it.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Problems detecting Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages

PostWed Apr 20, 2022 3:18 am

Ok, thank you. I'll will do it today or tomorrow.
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