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CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

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mnailor

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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostThu Sep 08, 2022 7:44 pm

So does the youtube video (I didn't have sound) imply that reasserting the already checked processor affinities after an engine restart fixes the problem, so the problem is that for some machine and Windows combinations, the processor affinity that HW sets for itself is being dropped or ignored? Or is the cause something else? Thanks!
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 12:16 am

Hello Chris! Did you start Hauptwerk with administration rights?
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostFri Sep 09, 2022 4:18 am

mnailor wrote:So does the youtube video (I didn't have sound) imply that reasserting the already checked processor affinities after an engine restart fixes the problem, so the problem is that for some machine and Windows combinations, the processor affinity that HW sets for itself is being dropped or ignored? Or is the cause something else? Thanks!


In the Youtube video the person just opened the Windows processor affinity screen, then OK'd it without changing anything on it. That must have prodded Windows or his BIOS to do something internally, which it should already have done anyway. Perhaps for some reason (maybe a bug in Windows, or in the AMD BIOS/CPU?) on his PC Windows isn't actually moving the threads to the requested CPU cores until he does that, or isn't running the threads at the requested priorities, or perhaps it's causing something to happen indirectly within the audio driver (such as triggering Windows to move its driver threads), or perhaps the CPU/BIOS/Windows is in some kind of semi-sleep state and the act of simply opening/OKing that screen is causing something to wake it up internally.

Given that it only started happening on Chris' PC a couple of weeks ago, presumably some automatic update (e.g. an automatic Windows update, or a motherboard driver update, or an audio driver update) caused it, or maybe even some part of Windows, or a driver, became partly corrupted (e.g. when an automatic happened).

It might be worth scanning the drive for errors, for good measure.

chrisdfrith wrote: I then disabled AMD Precision Boost, Cool N Quiet, Trusted Computing, and AMD ftpM - all four parameters together.


I'd recommend keeping all of those disabled at least until you've tracked the problem down, and keeping any BIOS features that vary the CPU speed dynamically permanently disabled (presumably AMD Precision Boost, Cool N Quiet that Evertjan mentioned), since they always potentially risk audio glitches.

Do also check the other things I mentioned, i.e.:
- Make sure the 'High performance' plan is kept selected whenever using Hauptwerk.
- Make sure and that both the min. and max. processor speeds are set to the same values (such as 70%) for that High Performance plan.
- Then watch Task Manager's CPU speed to make sure it's staying constant and at an expected GHz value for the CPU's base speed) as you try to use Hauptwerk.

If that doesn't solve it, and if you happen to have another audio interface to hand which has an ASIO driver, it could be worth trying it, so as to try to determine whether the problem is somehow related to your main audio interface/driver. (Alternatively, you might be able to use the freeware ASIO4All driver with the PC's built-in audio output, if it has one.)

chrisdfrith wrote: I then fired up St Anne's. Same result as above. CPU immediately spikes into the red. CPU monitor from Windows shows moving between 12% and 14% - never dipping below 12%


Just to note: Hauptwerk's 'audio CPU' meter doesn't show the same thing as the CPU meter in Windows Task Manager -- Hauptwerk's meter shows the amount of time it took to fill the audio buffer as the proportion of time that was available before the driver needed the buffer to have been filled. Hence it's specifically designed to show the risk of an audio glitch occurring. If the driver calls the Hauptwerk buffer-fill late, or with erratic timing (jitter), or if the Windows kernel isn't giving the Hauptwerk audio engine threads their necessary slices of time on the CPU cores, or isn't waking the threads properly, then Hauptwerk's meter will show higher values.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostSun Sep 11, 2022 1:14 pm

Hello all,

The PC completed the Microsoft Memory Diagnostic Tool. No errors were detected or reported. I continue to execute the steps in the YouTube video from Rogulu each time I load an organ. It works consistently to stop the CPU from spiking. I even added back in the convo reverb onto my 12 front channels. The CPU never moves above two bars in the HW monitor after I execute the steps from the YouTube video.

Since none of the BIOS changes had any effect separately or in unison, where do we go next? I am happy to provide diagnostic files, try other steps suggested, etc. While I'm very happy to have the steps from the video to execute so I can use the organ, it would be ideal to solve this issue more permanently. Thanks again to all who have been assisting me with resolving this.

Gratefully,

Chris
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mdyde

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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostSun Sep 11, 2022 1:24 pm

Hello Chris,

mdyde wrote:
chrisdfrith wrote:I then disabled AMD Precision Boost, Cool N Quiet, Trusted Computing, and AMD ftpM - all four parameters together.


I'd recommend keeping all of those disabled at least until you've tracked the problem down, and keeping any BIOS features that vary the CPU speed dynamically permanently disabled (presumably AMD Precision Boost, Cool N Quiet that Evertjan mentioned), since they always potentially risk audio glitches.

Do also check the other things I mentioned, i.e.:
- Make sure the 'High performance' plan is kept selected whenever using Hauptwerk.
- Make sure and that both the min. and max. processor speeds are set to the same values (such as 70%) for that High Performance plan.
- Then watch Task Manager's CPU speed to make sure it's staying constant and at an expected GHz value for the CPU's base speed) as you try to use Hauptwerk.

If that doesn't solve it, and if you happen to have another audio interface to hand which has an ASIO driver, it could be worth trying it, so as to try to determine whether the problem is somehow related to your main audio interface/driver. (Alternatively, you might be able to use the freeware ASIO4All driver with the PC's built-in audio output, if it has one.)


Have you definitely done the things I mentioned, and confirmed that the CPU speed is staying constant at roughly the specified base clock speed for the CPU?

Did you try using a different audio interface with a different ASIO driver?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostSun Sep 11, 2022 1:47 pm

This problem was discussed on the HW unofficial Facebook group, and it really does seem to be that certain Windows versions on AMD are not honoring HW's processor affinity settings. The YouTube "manual" fix above is the only thing that worked, and none of the usual Windows tuning measures helped anybody at all. I don't think it's a Hauptwerk bug.

Unfortunately, no specific Windows build numbers or patches were mentioned by the users who had the problem, that I know of. Duplicating the conditions seems to be difficult. (I have an AMD laptop with Windows 11 but it only had the fTPM bug, which gives similar symptoms.)

Maybe somebody here could give a Windows build # where the problem happens, please? Thanks.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostMon Sep 12, 2022 11:25 am

Hello Chris,

I've also made you a special test build to try, which logs lots of diagnostic information when Hauptwerk asks Windows to put its threads onto CPU cores. I've asked Francois to send you an email with the details. Hopefully it might give some clue about what's going wrong on your PC.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Stuart

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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 9:08 am

I, too, have experienced similar audio glitches, mostly after upgrading to Windows 11 (although I think there were also some issues under Windows 10.)

My system is based on an MSI motherboard (AMD X570 chipset) with AMD Ryzen 9, 3rd gen 3.8GHz, 128GB of memory and a MOTU Ao24 audio unit. All firmware, software, and drivers have been kept up-to-date and the usual Windows settings for good performance have been observed, but the glitches have persisted.

Following the suggestions in this thread, I changed settings (like "Power Boost") in the BIOS to make sure the CPU speed was constant and could not be changed. Since making these changes there have been no audio glitches, and the CPU meter in Hauptwerk has stayed at or near the lowest end, with no evidence of a spike in the red zone, even under heavy loads.

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions. It looks like they have solved the problem, at least for this particular system.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostWed Sep 14, 2022 9:09 am

Thanks, Stuart. Excellent.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostThu Sep 29, 2022 10:47 am

Hello Chris,

I see that you sent the diagnostic file from my test build to us yesterday -- thanks for that. I've had a good look through it, and here are my notes (partly for my own reference, and for anybody else reading this thread):

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Your CPU is an AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2920X 12-Core Processor , AMD64 Family 23 Model 8 Stepping 2.

- The CPU has 12 physical cores, and 24 virtual cores, which Hauptwerk is correctly detecting and using.

- The CPU's base clock speed is 3.5 GHz ( https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd ... pper-2920x ), which Hauptwerk is correctly reporting in the log, and my test build showed that the actual CPU clock speed was indeed staying constantly at 3.5 GHz whilst you were running the test build, so that should be fine.

- Hauptwerk is normally using AVX2 on that CPU, which is fine (although the test build that I sent was optimised for AVX, which shouldn't cause a problem).

- The log shows that you have 128 MB of installed RAM, and with St. Anne's loaded nearly all of it is still free, so that's fine.

- The OS and Hauptwerk are installed on just one drive/SSD in the computer (drive C:), which has about 1.5 TB free, so that's fine.

- Your Windows account has Windows administrator rights, so that's fine.

- When you ran the test, the process priority was normal, which is fine.

- Windows is reporting its version as 10.0.19044, and I think 19044 is still the latest feature version, so I would expect that to be fine. (I'm actually still using 19043, since I'm a bit reluctant to apply the latest feature release yet in case it breaks anything on my development environment.)

- When you launched the test build, and at all times subsequently whilst you were running it, the log showed the process and system CPU affinities both as hex. 00ffffff, which is fine, and indicates that Windows is reporting that Hauptwerk is allowed to run on all of the CPU's 24 virtual cores, as expected.

- The log showed that whenever Hauptwerk asked Windows to a set the CPU core affinity for a thread it was doing so correctly, to the intended core, and with the correct CPU affinity mask for that core, and that Windows was reporting that the CPU affinity for the thread had been set successfully, so that's all fine too.

- You're using the MOTU Pro Audio ASIO driver, with a buffer size of 1024, 1 buffer, and at 48 kHz, so that's all fine too.

- The log showed that the thread priorities were correct, and that the background models were performing well.

- I do notice that for St. Anne's you're currently using mixer preset 2, for which you currently have 25 IR reverb instances assigned (with maximum lengths about 6s), so that will add a reasonable amount of constant CPU load. However, I tried loading St. Anne's using exactly your settings (which the diagnostic file contains), and even my laptop's 12-year old quad-core Intel i7 CPU running at 1.6 GHz can allows me to play St. Anne's easily with all stops and couplers drawn (with all of your 25 reverb instances), without Hauptwerk's audio-CPU meter going into the red, and without any CPU spikes. Also, opening Windows' CPU affinity dialogue box and OKing it makes no noticeable difference to the audio-CPU meter or performance on my system (using your settings, including all 25 reverb instances).

Hence your log from the test build showed no indication of anything unexpected -- everything appears to be fine within Hauptwerk, and based on what Windows is reporting to Hauptwerk.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some questions:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- To confirm, when you tried my test build, did you still see the problem , i.e. was Hauptwerk's audio-CPU meter going into the red?

- Is the PC's drive activity still flashing constantly whilst audio/MIDI is active (e.g. with St. Anne's loaded)? (Hauptwerk won't be accessing the drive, so something else apart from Hauptwerk must be causing that, which might perhaps be relevant to the problem.)

- If, with St. Anne's loaded, you temporarily change the audio mixer preset to 5 (which I see has no reverbs applied currently), does Hauptwerk's audio-CPU meter still go into the red, and/or the drive light continue to flash? [You don't currently have any device channels selected on the mixer screen for mixer preset 5, so you won't hear anything, although within mixer preset 5's node you could also try selecting device channels 1+2 for master mix bus 1, so as to hear the audio.]

- Do you have a different (non-MOTU) audio interface available that you could try, just as a test, in case the problem is due to something strange within MOTU's driver on your (AMD-based) system?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please also try:

- Open Windows Resource Monitor (which can be opened from the button at the bottom of the Performance tab in Task Manager), then click on Resource Monitor's 'CPU' tab.

- Load one of the polyphony testing organs and set the number of pipes per key to high-ish value. (Don't try to do anything with CPU affinity.)

- Play and hold a chord, so that lots of pipes are sounding at once, so as to be reasonably demanding on CPU/polyphony.

- In Resource Monitor, are core numbers 4-23 (the core numbering starts from 0) reasonably evenly loaded? (They should be, if Windows has indeed put Hauptwerk's audio engine threads on the cores that Hauptwerk requested, and for which my test build showed that Windows was reporting success when told to set their thread affinities.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostThu Sep 29, 2022 2:15 pm

P.S. Also:

- Just in case it's relevant (given that you also have a MIDI OUT port named "Hauptwerk to Kontakt"), for testing purposes please also make sure that no other audio/MIDI software is running at the same time as Hauptwerk, in case it's adversely affecting the system's performance (e.g. by competing for CPU resources or access to drivers).

- Please double-check that firmware for your MOTU 24Ao is definitely the current version. One does that via the MOTU Pro Audio Control Web application, with the 24Ao device, and the 'Device' node selected in its left-hand pane. Provided that there is an Internet connection to the PC it should notify you of any available updates at the top of the right-hand pane. The "Updating Firmware" appendix in MOTU's user guide covers the process in depth.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostMon Oct 03, 2022 10:28 am

Hi Martin,

Thank you again for your continued diligence on this puzzling problem. Your questions are below with my responses.

- To confirm, when you tried my test build, did you still see the problem , i.e. was Hauptwerk's audio-CPU meter going into the red?

Yes, the CPU spiking occurs as soon as the MIDI and Audio engine loads. If at any point, I restart the Audio engine in HW, the CPU spikes begin immediately.

- Is the PC's drive activity still flashing constantly whilst audio/MIDI is active (e.g. with St. Anne's loaded)? (Hauptwerk won't be accessing the drive, so something else apart from Hauptwerk must be causing that, which might perhaps be relevant to the problem.)

No. The drive activity seems normal once the PC has had sufficient time to do whatever it does after booting which can sometimes take five mins or more.

- If, with St. Anne's loaded, you temporarily change the audio mixer preset to 5 (which I see has no reverbs applied currently), does Hauptwerk's audio-CPU meter still go into the red, and/or the drive light continue to flash? [You don't currently have any device channels selected on the mixer screen for mixer preset 5, so you won't hear anything, although within mixer preset 5's node you could also try selecting device channels 1+2 for master mix bus 1, so as to hear the audio.]

Yes. I tried this earlier. The CPU spikes occur as soon as the Audio engine loads without regard to the audio profile used having IR or not.

- Do you have a different (non-MOTU) audio interface available that you could try, just as a test, in case the problem is due to something strange within MOTU's driver on your (AMD-based) system?

I do have a small ESI U24 XL24-bit two-channel USB Audio Interface. I will try that instead of MOTU on the Windows 10 PC to see if that makes a difference. Interestingly, I am using the ESI interface on an ASUS laptop that I am using to test a new console that is being built that will drive HW for me. That laptop also has an AMD Ryzen processor and is running Windows 11. I noticed yesterday when I fired up HW7 with my HW 7 Lite license, it also showed the CPU spiking. I followed the same steps from the YouTube video to make the CPU spikes stop. It seems to me something peculiar to Windows 10/11 on AMD Ryzen processors.

- Just in case it's relevant (given that you also have a MIDI OUT port named "Hauptwerk to Kontakt"), for testing purposes please also make sure that no other audio/MIDI software is running at the same time as Hauptwerk, in case it's adversely affecting the system's performance (e.g. by competing for CPU resources or access to drivers).

I ensured that my Kontakt sampler player was not loaded. I've been using it with Hauptwerk though since 2016 without problem.

- Please double-check that firmware for your MOTU 24Ao is definitely the current version. One does that via the MOTU Pro Audio Control Web application, with the 24Ao device, and the 'Device' node selected in its left-hand pane. Provided that there is an Internet connection to the PC it should notify you of any available updates at the top of the right-hand pane. The "Updating Firmware" appendix in MOTU's user guide covers the process in depth.

I did ensure that the MOTU device is running on the latest firmware. I also confirmed that the Windows 10 PC running HW is running the latest drivers from MOTU.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostMon Oct 03, 2022 11:01 am

Thanks, Chris.

On your main AMD Ryzen PC please try:

- Make sure that all of the following are disabled in the BIOS for now:
----------- AMD Precision Boost (X-Boost).
----------- AMD Cool N Quiet.
----------- Trusted Computing.
----------- AMD ftpM.

- Check that the Windows power plan is still set to 'High performance'. Click the 'Change plan settings' button for the 'High performance'' plan, click 'Change advanced settings', expand the 'Processor power management' node, and keep both the Minimum and Maximum 'Plugged in' settings are set to 70% for now.

- Reboot the PC (and log back into Windows if needed).

- Exit Hauptwerk if it launches automatically. Also exit any other applications that might be running, and especially ones that might use audio or MIDI.

- Wait until the drive activity light has finished flashing.

- Launch Hauptwerk via a 'spare' 'Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' configuration (desktop shortcut) .

- Use 'File | Revert all settings to factory defaults' within that configuration to ensure that all of its settings are (still) at their defaults. (Hauptwerk will exit after you revert the settings.)

- Re-launch that same 'Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' configuration, and select your MOTU ASIO driver (with 1 buffer, buffer size=1024, 48 kHz).

- Load St. Anne's to verify that the problem still occurs, even with all-default settings and even when no keys are played. (Don't try to do anything with thread affinity.) Assuming so:

- Load one of the polyphony testing organs and set the number of pipes per key to high-ish value. Verify that the problem still occurs, even when no keys are played. (Don't try to do anything with CPU affinity.) Assuming so:

- Auto-detect a MIDI keyboard to its virtual keyboard.

- Open Windows Resource Monitor (which can be opened from the button at the bottom of the Performance tab in Task Manager), then click on Resource Monitor's 'CPU' tab.

- Play and hold a chord, so that lots of pipes are sounding at once, so as to be reasonably demanding on CPU/polyphony.

- In Resource Monitor, are core numbers 4-23 (the core numbering starts from 0) reasonably evenly loaded? (They should be, if Windows has indeed put Hauptwerk's audio engine threads on the cores that Hauptwerk requested, and for which my test build showed that Windows was reporting success when told to set their thread affinities.)

- Keep pressing and holding more keys until each of core numbers 4-23 is, say, 70% loaded. Are they still loading fairly equally (as they should be)?

Assuming the problem still occurs in the above tests, please then exit Hauptwerk, attach your ESI audio interface, and repeat these steps, but this time using the ESI ASIO driver/interface (instead of the MOTU):

mdyde wrote:- Re-launch that same 'Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' configuration, and select your ESI ASIO driver (with 1 buffer, buffer size=1024, 48 kHz).

- Load St. Anne's to verify that the problem still occurs, even with all-default settings and even when no keys are played. (Don't try to do anything with thread affinity.) Assuming so:

- Load one of the polyphony testing organs and set the number of pipes per key to high-ish value. Verify that the problem still occurs, even when no keys are played. (Don't try to do anything with CPU affinity.) Assuming so:

- Open Windows Resource Monitor (which can be opened from the button at the bottom of the Performance tab in Task Manager), then click on Resource Monitor's 'CPU' tab.

- Play and hold a chord, so that lots of pipes are sounding at once, so as to be reasonably demanding on CPU/polyphony.

- In Resource Monitor, are core numbers 4-23 (the core numbering starts from 0) reasonably evenly loaded? (They should be, if Windows has indeed put Hauptwerk's audio engine threads on the cores that Hauptwerk requested, and for which my test build showed that Windows was reporting success when told to set their thread affinities.)

- Keep pressing and holding more keys until each of core numbers 4-23 is, say, 70% loaded. Are they still loading fairly equally (as they should be)?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostMon Oct 03, 2022 11:13 am

(P.S. Just in case you were reading it straight after I posted it: I've tweaked the text in my reply immediately above to add some more steps.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: CPU Spikes to Red Causing Intermittent Audio Artifacts

PostFri Oct 14, 2022 5:19 pm

Hello:

Was there a conclusion to this issue/thread? I have a new build and experiencing the same random CPU spikes and audio drop outs! Like the original poster, I have a substantial PC:
-Win 10 Pro
-HW 7
-Asus Prime Z590-P
-Intel i7 11700K Intel processor
-64GB RAM
-1TB NVME drive

I have read through this thread and a couple others that are related so yes, MOTU ASIO driver, firmware, and MOTB bios all updated to latest release. Latest required updates to WIN10 as well. The majority of the HW7 Performance & Tuning steps have been applied as well as the turbo, overclocking, etc. features in the BIOS have been disabled.

Interesting is that the noticeable differences (improvements) seem to come from adjusting the audio buffer size (512 or 1024) and number (1 or 2). By improvements I mean it takes a lot longer for the CPU spike to occur which is discouraging in that you can get through 1 or 2 pieces then get a surprise on the next one! There are no CPU spikes with St. Anne's or the Piotr Grabowski's Raszczyce however I didn't really sit down and perform on those two. It was mainly load, play a few notes, check back in 45 minutes to review the CPU load meter's high mark.

When I start HW from the desktop, the organ loads, there is a CPU spike right after as what Martin stated can be expected. When loading up a new instrument with HW already running, generally there isn't that initial spike.

I have the "Try to run Hauptwerk at real-time priority on Windows" ticked but reviewing the process in Task Manager shows it at normal. I then move it to Real-Time which makes some improvement. I need to document where I've been so I don't repeat the same troubleshooting steps :wink:

The 2 sample sets that are spiking are Friesach and SP's new Bückeburg, 24 bit uncompressed, High Audio resolution set as well as 96Hz. I've experimented with these settings as well with no affect better or worse.

Regards,

Danny B.
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