It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:56 am


Combinations problem

Hauptwerk software technical support only. Please make sure you have read the manual, tutorials and FAQ pages before requesting support.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 9:14 am

This is a problem I'm having with the Sonus Paradisi Burton Hill organ.
Let me say right away that I don't think this is a problem with either the organ or with HW. I'm sure it's something I've setup wrong but I'd welcome any ideas on what!

I can select some stops (on Choir, Swell or Pedal), press 'Set' on the combination screen then press piston buttons 1 to 8 under General, Swell, Choir or Pedal and the selected stops are saved. This is exactly what I would expect to happen.

But if I select some stops on the Great, press 'Set' on the combination screen then press any of 1 to 8 of the Great pistons - then the stops go off and NOTHING is saved.
In summary, I can save any combination of stops under General, Swell, Choir or Pedal but I cannot save anything under any of the 8 Great pistons.

This is NOT an inherent fault with the organ - it works fine for others and has for me in the past until a recent PC rebuild and reinstall.

I do have physical buttons mapped to the pistons but I get the same problem whether I use the physical buttons or the ones on the organ's combinations screen.

Any thoughts on what I might have done wrong to cause this to happen?

Thanks
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 9:30 am

Hello Steve,

I don't have experience personally with SP's Burton Hill sample set, so I can't reliably comment on what logic/behaviour it might or might not implement in its organ definition (ODF). However, my initial thoughts would be:

- Try operating the relevant controls solely by using the mouse, instead of doing anything via MIDI, to help to rule MIDI settings/behaviour out.

- Make sure that the setter's state as shown specifically on Hauptwerk's Registration large control panel is definitely (still) *on* when you try to capture the registration, and that it is definitely *off* when you try to recall the stored registration. E.g. perhaps something (some MIDI mappings, or something in the ODF) is changing the setter's state when you don't intend it. It's worth checking the setter's status specifically on a control panel (rather than that of any virtual setter piston within the sample set's virtual console, and rather than that of a mapped MIDI control), just in case the states aren't synchronising properly for some reason.

- Instead of using the sample set's native pistons, try (still using just the mouse) capturing/recalling the same stops to one of Hauptwerk's master general pistons on the Registration large control panel. That should help to rule out any ODF logic/behaviour.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 12:22 pm

Thank you for the suggestions. I have been experimenting and it's a bit odd!

First, the organ screen 'Set' button and the registration panel 'Setter' button always work correctly together.
Second, everything below was done with the mouse.

I can click General Cancel (Gen C & Hand Reg buttons light), select any stops on any division except the Great, click 'Setter', click any organ piston number on Sw/Ch/Ped - the Setter light will go out and the stops stay on.
Click GC then the relevant piston and the stops come back on again.
So far, everything working correctly exactly as you would expect.

Now I select some great stops, click the Setter button and it lights up, click (say) Great 2 button and this time the General Cancel light comes on, the stops go off and nothing is saved.
(As you would expect, GC does NOT come on when you save on any other division.)

Saving Great stop settings to HW master generals works fine.

I tried clearing all the MIDI/trigger settings for the Great pistons on the organs screen but that made no difference.

I can, of course, use HW scoped pistons instead but I'd really like to understand what is happening here!
What can be causing ALL the Great pistons - but nothing else - to toggle GC when in Setting mode?

Steve
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 12:38 pm

Thanks, Steve.

So as to try to determine whether it's related to any user settings (or MIDI messages to/from your console, or ODF-memorised virtual control states), please try:

- Launch Hauptwerk via a 'spare' 'Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' configuration (desktop shortcut) .

- Use 'File | Revert all settings to factory defaults' within that configuration to ensure that all of its settings are (still) at their defaults. (Hauptwerk will exit after you revert the settings.)

- Re-launch that same 'Hauptwerk (alt confg N)' configuration, and select your audio device when prompted, but un-tick all MIDI ports when prompted.

- Load the organ (you could disable all ranks if you like, for maximum loading speed). Don't auto-detect any MIDI settings, or change any other settings from their defaults.

Do you then still have the same behaviour?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 1:23 pm

Everything works perfectly when I do that!

I guess that means there is some corruption in the other configuration. Is the best approach to clear that one and start again?

If so, is there a way to save and restore the considerable amount of individual note level adjustment that I've done?

Thanks
Steve
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 1:43 pm

Thanks, Steve.

In your main configuration I'd suggest:

- Load the organ.

- First try loading a different combination set (file), just in case it's something within the one you've been using that is causing it (but I think that's unlikely). Alternatively, with the desired combination set loaded you could use "Registration | Revert all combinations to organ defaults". If that doesn't fix it:

- Use "File | Backup ..." (in case you want to get your settings back later).

- Go to "Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard". When asked what to reset un-tick everything except for the three "Reset MIDI ..." options, then complete the wizard. (You can cancel the automatic backup, since you've already made one above.) If that still doesn't fix it:

- Go to "Design tools | Load organ (with design options)" and un-tick everything except for "Reset MIDI settings and stored states for all virtual controls", then click OK and select the organ, let it load.

Does that fix it?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostTue Oct 25, 2022 1:46 pm

Thanks - probably be tomorrow now till I get a chance to try that but I'll let you know.
Steve
Offline
User avatar

David Baldwin

Member

  • Posts: 323
  • Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:08 pm
  • Location: Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 3:23 am

It doesn't work when you use a Great piston. Have you set range for that piston. (Range may be the wrong word but I am sitting in my armchair writing this!)
(Dr.) David G. Baldwin
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 3:56 am

David Baldwin wrote:It doesn't work when you use a Great piston. Have you set range for that piston. (Range may be the wrong word but I am sitting in my armchair writing this!)

If you mean scoped pistons, then that only applies to using the HW ones. The inbuilt organ ones should work anyway.
Steve
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 5:45 am

Martin
Your final option fixed it...
Code: Select all
- Go to "Design tools | Load organ (with design options)" and un-tick everything except for "Reset MIDI settings and stored states for all virtual controls", then click OK and select the organ, let it load.


I had to re-detect keyboards, etc but then it started playing.
BUT...
I then did the usual auto-detect for the 8 Great console pistons and the console Setter piston and that's when things went strange.
The problem seems to be with the programming of the setter piston. I press the setter and the 'Set' piston light on the screen lights up. Then I press a Great piston - and the 'set' light goes out! Release the setter piston and it comes on again so no the setter is working out of phase and screws everything up.

It must be something I've done wrong with the set piston as if I use the mouse/screen set button and the physical console Gt pistons, everything works perfectly.

I'm programming the Set piston the same way as I have for very many years - set autodetect, press in and hold it, click 'Done'. Press in and hold it again, select autodetect on relevant input 2, release then click 'Done'.
Am I doing this wrong?

Thanks
Steve
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 6:34 am

Thanks, Steve.

sclg wrote:I'm programming the Set piston the same way as I have for very many years - set autodetect, press in and hold it, click 'Done'. Press in and hold it again, select autodetect on relevant input 2, release then click 'Done'.
Am I doing this wrong?


You might be doing this anyway, but when auto-detecting a piston, you should press the MIDI piston, and then also release it, before clicking 'Done', so that Hauptwerk also hears the 'off' event (if any) from the MIDI piston.

Also, there would be point in auto-detecting the same MIDI piston to the same virtual control twice, i.e. via both of the 'Input 1' and 'Input 2' tabs. (The 'Input 2' exists solely in case you have two different MIDI pistons, which send different MIDI messages, which you want to use to control the same virtual function.) If the virtual piston has any kind of toggling, auto-off, or similar logic then you could cause problems by auto-detecting the same MIDI piston to the same virtual control via both input tabs, which I suspect is the root of the problem in this case. Hence if you only have one MIDI piston for the setter (or for any other control) then it's important that you should only auto-detect it via the 'Input 1' tab (or simply by using right-click auto-detection, which uses the 'Input 1' tab anyway), and not also for the 'Input 2' tab.

Assuming you only have one MIDI piston for the setter, try using the right-click option to clear MIDI settings for the setter, and also for each of the other pistons that you've already auto-detected, then try just using right-click auto-detection for them (i.e. using only their 'Input 1s').

My guess is that Jiri implemented some logic in the ODF for the Great pistons (but no for the divisionals on the other divisions, for some reason) so that they automatically turn the setter off whenever pressed.

One other point: if you don't want the setter to turn off automatically when storing a registration, also make sure that the "General settings | General preferences | Main 2: Cancel setter ... automatically when capturing to a combination" option isn't ticked.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 8:04 am

Curiouser and curiouser!
Tried with St Anne and I get the same problem - on both manuals.

The 'Set' button on my (Renatus) console sends a code when pushed and a code when released so I've always set it up the way I described earlier, programming the default input for 'push' and input 2 for 'release'. It's not possible to set it the conventional way. If I do a normal autodetect on it, when I press the piston in, the 'Done' button is highlighted but when I release the piston, the dialogue box returns to the 'Cancel' button being highlighted.

To be fair, it's worked perfectly for over 10 years on HW 4 to 7!
This new problem has only arisen since I rebuilt the PC and moved from W10 to W11. Although I can't see why that should change anything.

I then tried making another 'spare' piston on the console the setter piston. This is a conventional piston that doesn't do two codes and that all works perfectly.

For now, I think I shall just give up and use this other piston as my 'Set' (although top right instead of bottom left isn't great!!)
It is odd though that a PC rebuild and a move to W11 should stop this working when it has been fine for over 10 years...

Many thanks for all your help. I wouldn't have tracked it down without your advice.
Steve
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 8:49 am

Thanks, Steve.

sclg wrote:The 'Set' button on my (Renatus) console sends a code when pushed and a code when released so I've always set it up the way I described earlier, programming the default input for 'push' and input 2 for 'release'. It's not possible to set it the conventional way. If I do a normal autodetect on it, when I press the piston in, the 'Done' button is highlighted but when I release the piston, the dialogue box returns to the 'Cancel' button being highlighted.


If Hauptwerk can't auto-detect both the 'on' and 'off' events in one go then I think your MIDI setter piston is probably sending 'asymmetric' MIDI message from the two events (e.g. on different MIDI channels, or with different MIDI note numbers).

By auto-detecting it in the way that you're doing effectively you would be toggling the state of the virtual setter as you pressed the MIDI piston in, and then toggling its state again as you released it. If something else had toggled the state of the virtual setter in-between (e.g. some logic in an ODF, or by having the "General settings | General preferences | Main 2: Cancel setter ... automatically when capturing to a combination" option ticked) then it could end up in an unintended state.

Another possibility is that the console might be sending some additional, unexpected MIDI messages (e.g. its MIDI stop states from its internal combination system) as you operate its MIDI pistons (its combination pistons and/or its setter piston), causing some unintended virtual control(s) to be triggered. Make sure you don't have both its MIDI stops and its MIDI pistons auto-detected to Hauptwerk, otherwise the two combination systems will inevitably 'fight over' the states of the stops (see the "Playing Hauptwerk live from a digital organ" section in the main Hauptwerk user guide -- pages 261-262 in the current v7.0 version -- for more details). E.g. maybe some setting or stored combination in your Renatus has changed since you previously had it working.

If you want to see whether you can get its MIDI setter piston working, you could experiment with using St. Anne's in that 'spare' (all-default-settings) Hauptwerk configuration, with the "General settings | General preferences | Advanced ...: Diagnostics: log all MIDI messages" option turned on. After each piston press you could then see exactly what MIDI messages had been received from the console, and what virtual controls they had triggered, via "Help | View activity log".

Alternatively, you could use MIDI-OX (when Hauptwerk isn't running), although of course that wouldn't show what MIDI messages had been sent from Hauptwerk, or what virtual controls incoming MIDI messages had triggered.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
Offline

sclg

Member

  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:22 pm
  • Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 9:07 am

I think I've found it!
Something you said earlier but I had missed...
One other point: if you don't want the setter to turn off automatically when storing a registration, also make sure that the "General settings | General preferences | Main 2: Cancel setter ... automatically when capturing to a combination" option isn't ticked.


Once I unticked that, everything went back to normal and the old 'Set' piston - programmed the way I mentioned - started working fine.
I think pressing the Gt piston was cancelling the setter but then letting 'Set' go was turning it on again confusing everything.

All seems to be well now. The solution is always obvious after you've found it!
Thanks
Steve
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 15446
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: Combinations problem

PostWed Oct 26, 2022 9:08 am

Thanks, Steve. Excellent!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

Return to Technical support

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 3 guests