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Nancy - new sample set released

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bambergfranken

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 02, 2021 6:17 am

münsterorganist wrote:Dear bambergfranken,
there are a very good translation, called eOrganum 6.02, from Dieter Thomsen. Its not only the translation for German Speakers, rather a explanation for connections. Please Google vor it. Best regards.

Thanks for the great tip!
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Theorbe

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Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 02, 2021 10:39 am

I’ve been trying to find out the reason why I disliked this sample set so much (at least initially). I’ve concluded there is far too much reverb with the default perspective settings for my taste. Not only that, but in the middle and rear perspectives, the reverb is too much “bell-like” rather than “echo” i.e. a similar effect when omitting the release layers for staccato duration.

Anyway, I’m pleased to say that having spent a lot more time experimenting with the perspective adjustments in the demo version I’ve now found a combination which I think is a vast improvement, for me anyway:

Master Pedal Pos GO Bom Recit
Close 0
Front 100 90? 100 100 90 100
Middle 0
Rear 25 90? 0 50 90 50

Also, both random detuning settings at 25%

I’d be interested to know if others had similar views and if you find the above settings an improvement, either for the demo of full set.

It also begs the question if there will be a cheaper version later on with just Front and Rear perspectives!

Thanks.

Andy
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OrganoPleno

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 02, 2021 11:41 am

Theorbe wrote:Anyway, I’m pleased to say that having spent a lot more time experimenting with the perspective adjustments in the demo version I’ve now found a combination which I think is a vast improvement, for me anyway:


Since this is a very large Pipe Organ in a very large Cathedral, the substantial Reverberation is an integral aspect of the sound, which cannot and should not be avoided. If the sound of a glorious large Organ in a glorious large space is not to your taste, then perhaps this is not the Sample Set for you.

But there is still hope. The "Close" recordings are actually semi-dry. Putting "Close" at 100% and everything else at Zero, there is very little Reverb. The Decay Time remains the same, but the echoing is very much softer... so soft, in fact, that you can now use Hauptwerk's Convolution Reverb along with it, to bring the sound back up to a fuller environmental experience. For this, I would recommend selecting "Church 01" or "Church 09" at 100%.

Thanks for posting the over-all Settings which you have found to be most satisfactory. Here are the Settings which sound best to my own ears, on my own system (Headphones with Tactile Subwoofer):

Switches ON (blower noise and Anches/Copula GO)
Noises at 100%
No added reverb
Detunes at 16% / 16%

Master Sliders: Close 75%, Front 75%, Middle 75%, Rear 100%
Divisional Sliders: Everything at 100%

Hoping that this is of interest. Comparing with my other Sample Sets (over 70 of them), the lighter registrations on the Nancy have a sweetness rivalled only by the Martinikerk of Groningen, and the richness of the full voices (with OR without Reeds) is unmatched.
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Theorbe

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 02, 2021 12:54 pm

OrganoPleno wrote:
Since this is a very large Pipe Organ in a very large Cathedral, the substantial Reverberation is an integral aspect of the sound, which cannot and should not be avoided. If the sound of a glorious large Organ in a glorious large space is not to your taste, then perhaps this is not the Sample Set for you.


Just to clear something up in case there are any misunderstandings or incorrect assumptions: I have a great dislike for the sound of organs with a dry acoustic. I do very much like the sound of an organ in a large reverberant building and have been moved to tears on several occasions in such environments. That's just so you know what sort of sound I like. The reason for my initial disappointment with the Nancy was that the balance between the dry and wet was not right for me. And, as I mentioned, the character of that reverberation (with the default settings) I also found unpleasant. Fortunately, we can both achieve the balance we like by adjusting those settings.

Thanks.

Regards

Andy
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JulianMoney-Kyrle

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostThu Jun 03, 2021 3:48 am

I remember a discussion with Prof. Helmut Maier from Organ Art Media, who have produced a number of superb samples of famous historic organs. One of these is the Metzler organ at Poblet. I love the sampleset, but to my ears it sounds too wet and I find it hard to achieve enough clarity. His view was that the sample is a document of the organ as it is, the reverberation is part of it and that it would be a misrepresentation to change anything. It seemed to me, however, that the recording engineer has a choice about the position of the microphones and therefore how prominent the reverberation is in the final samples. The subsequent release of samplesets with variable perspective and multiple microphone positions seems to be a demonstration of just that.

How an organ sounds from the console is often not very representative of how it sounds elsewhere in the building, which also begs the question of whether Hauptwerk is aiming to give a realistic simulation of the experience of playing a real organ or something slightly different. I have also seen microphones set up in churches for commercial recordings and broadcasting that were hung from the ceiling in positions that would be completely inaccessible by any human listener, but presumably the recording engineer knows what they are doing. Then there are the recordings of E. Power Biggs playing historic European instruments which sound as though the microphones were inside the casing itself, giving a very strange dry effect with individual pipes leaping all over the stereo field
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smfrank

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostThu Jun 03, 2021 6:55 am

JulianMoney-Kyrle wrote:How an organ sounds from the console is often not very representative of how it sounds elsewhere in the building, which also begs the question of whether Hauptwerk is aiming to give a realistic simulation of the experience of playing a real organ or something slightly different.

An interesting place is St. Paul the Apostle in NYC. The reverberation is around 11-12 seconds. I played several concerts there in the nineties. If you moved the console forward to a particular point it was very playable. Another few inches, you heard the bounce back. Sometime later they moved the console and altar out to the middle of the church. I played the organ once for a few minutes in that location. The sound was so much of a muddle it was almost impossible to play. There are some good YouTube videos of people who have mastered it, but it is difficult.

I appreciate the sample sets that allow you to change the perspective - like moving the console as stated above. There aren't too many places where you can actually do that, but HW allows us to achieve the same effect. I for one, do appreciate that!

Steve
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bourdon

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 4:12 am

I second what Julian says about the position of the mics for the recording.
And, personally, I would like to have at least 2 possibilities: the first being a stereo recording "from the bench "giving the sensation of what you get when playing the actual organ , i.e. : with the mics placed in the loft near to the organist's ears ( I reckon perhaps this is difficult because you get to record also various parasites noises as the creaking of the bench, the sound of the keys, the sniffing or coughing of the organist ans sound engineer, etc...);
And the second possibility being to hear the organ recorded from the floor of the church at the best hearing position of the empty church , according to its architecture , size, position, hight, and importance of the organ etc, etc;.)..
Last edited by bourdon on Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mdyde

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 4:26 am

[bourdon -- I moved your reply to this topic, since I think this is where you meant it to be.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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bourdon

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 4:29 am

YES, Martin, thanks à lot, and sorry for the disturbance ( I was actually trying to do that, but didn't find the way to transfer a message from one topic to an other . And, btw, I am really amazed by your vigilance ans reactivity ! :D )
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mdyde

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 5:11 am

Thanks. No problem at all. You're very welcome. (I don't think non-administrator forum users would have the necessary permissions to move a post anyway, so you wouldn't have been able to do it yourself.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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voet

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Re: bad sounding sample sets because too perfect

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 9:41 am

bourdon wrote:[P]ersonally, I would like to have at least 2 possibilities: the first being a stereo recording "from the bench "giving the sensation of what you get when playing the actual organ .


I think this would need to be determined on a case by case basis. I know of many instruments where organists are frustrated because:

-the Brustwerk is closest to the organist, so it sounds much louder.
-the Oberwerk is far above the organist, so it sounds much softer
-the Ruckpositive sounds much softer to the organist, but in fact, sounds considerably louder in the room.

In such situations, the organist has to hear the organ in the room to register effectively.
Last edited by voet on Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bourdon

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostFri Jun 04, 2021 4:29 pm

I agree completely. I even have played an organ , were you can use earphones ( ...I didn't !..) in order to hear a bit of direct sound ,because you are completely surrounded by the organ case which comes also completely above you.

Nethertheless , this is our lot, and -as far as I'm concerned- if I play a recorded sample set, I prefer to hear it as if I were actually playing the real instrument , on the bench in the organ loft , and not down in the church...( apart of course from some rare churches, where you have a second console on the floor of the church..).

Of course, when you give a concert in an unknown church , there are times where you can hesitate between such and such registration , in terms of equilibrium , etc.. But , it's our craft and, also, we can then ask the opinion of somebody ( especially , the inviting organist , if he is on location).
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostTue Jun 15, 2021 9:38 am

mnailor wrote:I would have bought this sampleset at this price before I retired 18 months ago, but now I have to restrain myself as if I'm living on a fixed income. Rats.

I don't think it's priced unusually high for the organ's size and number of perspectives, whether I can afford it or not.

Compare it to Groningen, Caen dry + surround bundle, Haarlem surround, Salisbury and ND Metz until the recent MDA price reductions. Nancy is priced similarly, and PG's quality is up there with the others.


Well, after watching Richard McVeigh's demo video, I decided Nancy is where my social security check went this month. I didn't regret it. Wonderful sampleset!
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mnailor

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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 12:57 pm

It's interesting trying to come up with a perspective blend that works for my 64GB memory (59.5 available per HW before loading an organ), and my ears, speakers, room, etc.

I can only load 2 perspectives at 24 bit compressed, or 3 perspectives at 20 bit compressed, with all but one set of noise samples omitted. With such long reverb, I'd like to use 24 bit compressed, since the ends of long combined reverb tails are where the small amount of extra noise comes in at 20 bit. (SP blog article)

These remarks are for my system, room, and ears, not a comment on the sampleset or anyone else's setup or tastes, so I'll skip repeating that qualifier with every statement.

Front and Rear sounds bottom heavy and muddy on my system. So does Front alone. Varying percentages doesn't improve clarity enough.

Adding some Close to Front and Rear helps clarity, but memory limitations get in my way.

Close and Front alone doesn't use my rear speakers so is less immersive. Too much Close makes releases too abrupt for me, as does moving Front to my rear speakers.

I was surprised to find that Front and Middle, with Middle on my rear speakers, reinforces the upper part of the sound enough for clarity, but still includes enough of the long acoustics that I love about this sampleset. My rear T7V and RP10-3 speakers are brighter in the treble than the front A8X and A3X, as heard from the bench, so that helps.

Front + Middle might be my answer. More playing after my wife's meetings are over to test it, but so far, very nice.
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Re: Nancy - new sample set released

PostWed Jun 16, 2021 9:15 pm

You don’t need to load every perspective at the same quality level. For instance, you could load front at 24 and the other three at 16 bit, then have front at 100%, and the others at 25%. The extra depth and lower noise level of higher bit depths is not as audible if you have them turned down anyway.
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