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World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...
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IainStinson

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 6:07 am

I've now installed the full sample set (with all four sample positions).

The first time I tried to load all the samples in 20 bit resolution this would not fit into my 64GB Windows 10 system.

I then tried loading all the samples again at 20 bit resolution but omitted the RP Tremulant samples and all and the Rear sampled tremulants. [There are two tremulant samples for the RP for each of the four sample positions; one operated by the RP tremulant stop and one by the organ tremulant stop. I omitted the ones for the RP Tremulant stop.] This left 0.9GB of RAM available according to HW's RAM mini control panel and the cache file was saved.

It takes a long time to load the organ when adjusting the ranks to load etc. (probably approaching an hour each time).

I set up the audio output using my "usual" surround sample set preset (offsetting the the starting note for the allocation algorithm for two of the three "positions" which I allocated to the main speakers).

When I played the instrument I was very disappointed with the sound - it was distorted and not at all pleasing.

I was unable to spend time looking into this yesterday evening and came back to it this morning.

I restarted Hauptwerk and the Groningen set loaded this time reporting 1.1 GB of RAM available (RAM meter still in the "yellow" section of the gauge). I was overjoyed when I played the instrument - it sounded wonderful! I had not made any changes to its settings and can only presume that some artifacts from the cache generation had cause the initial sound to be so poor. It may also be that having so little available RAM 0.9GB after generating the cache was the cause of the problem.

I increased the polyphony to the recommend 8000 and the RAM available reduced to 1.0GB. It still sounded magnificent, wonderful etc.

I loaded another organ in its place, played for a short while, then reload the Groningen sample set. The polyphony is still at 8000 and there is now 1.1 GB of RAM available (still in the yellow zone). The sound is still magnificent, wonderful, etc.

Other than saying that this is really a great sample set .....

I note that when you don't load some of the original samples for the tremulant (but do load others), using Original tremulant, no sound is played for those ranks/sample position that have been omitted when the tremulant is drawn - so I have no sound from rear ranks when I drawn the organ tremulant. When I draw the RP tremulant, the RP ranks don't sound. It would be nice if the sample set would switch to the artificial tremulant when it finds it does not have the samples for a particular tremulant rank loaded (but I suspect that is very difficult). I think I am happier with this compromise than using only artificial tremulants (though I could control their speed).

What do other users of this sample set do to fit into the "monster" into their available RAM?

I wonder why the sound was poor the first time the sample set was loaded when generating the cache? Is it because there is too little RAM being left available for Hauptwerk's audio engine?

All input (on topic) most welcome!

Iain
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mdyde

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 7:40 am

Hello Iain,

IainStinson wrote:When I played the instrument I was very disappointed with the sound - it was distorted and not at all pleasing.

I was unable to spend time looking into this yesterday evening and came back to it this morning.

I restarted Hauptwerk and the Groningen set loaded this time reporting 1.1 GB of RAM available (RAM meter still in the "yellow" section of the gauge). I was overjoyed when I played the instrument - it sounded wonderful! I had not made any changes to its settings and can only presume that some artifacts from the cache generation had cause the initial sound to be so poor. It may also be that having so little available RAM 0.9GB after generating the cache was the cause of the problem.


IainStinson wrote:I wonder why the sound was poor the first time the sample set was loaded when generating the cache? Is it because there is too little RAM being left available for Hauptwerk's audio engine?


I don't have first-hand experience with the sample set, but I'd be very wary of filling the memory to the extent that only 0.9 GB is reported as 'free' (when audio/MIDI is active). A severe lack of resources (RAM/CPU, or paging occurring, if the Windows page file isn't disabled) could easily cause Hauptwerk's background models (e.g. the wind model supply) to be 'choked'.

There's no reliable way to know exactly how much RAM it's truly 'safe' (i.e. without performance or stability risks) to use on a modern computer (it varies from computer to computer, exactly what else is installed, drivers, versions, whatever, else might happen to start in the background at any time, etc.), and Hauptwerk's 'free GB' meter should only be regarded as a very, very rough guide. On a 64 GB PC, my recommendation would not to use more than about 90% for Hauptwerk, although Hauptwerk (v5.0.1, as v4 did) does allow you to go beyond than that 'at your own risk' (especially for those with very stripped-down Windows installations), but you should definitely bear in mind that you might risk performance or system stability by doing so.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 8:38 am

Hallo Martin,

You said "Hauptwerk (v5.0.1, as v4 did) does allow you to go beyond than that 'at your own risk' (especially for those with very stripped-down Windows installations)".
We always strip our Windows 7 PCs down to a "bare-bones" state as per the recommendations on this page:
http://www.blackviper.com/service-confi ... gurations/.
Is this the kind of thing you had in mind? If so, can you estimate how much RAM/CPU use this might save?
(We do a similar strip-down on the rare occasions when we build with Win 10, but Black Viper's Win 10 strip-down list seems less clear-cut.)
Douglas Henn-Macrae
Authorized Hauptwerk Reseller
http://www.midi-organs.eu
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mdyde

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 9:06 am

Hello Douglas,

Very sorry -- I can't help with that, I'm afraid. Perhaps you could engage Francois' services if you want detailed advice on stripping-down/tuning Windows, if needed. (He has lots of experience with tuning Windows systems.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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dhm

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 9:46 am

Understood - Thanks, Martin.
I was merely asking whether my definition of "stripped-down" was the same as yours. :D
Douglas Henn-Macrae
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http://www.midi-organs.eu
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mdyde

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 10:18 am

Hello Douglas,

Yes -- I would consider the things that are listed on the page you mention as 'stripping down' a Windows installation. However, exactly which are appropriate/safe for a given situation, whether there are other/better ones, and how much benefit in terms of RAM or performance any or all of them would give, I can't say.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 04, 2020 11:26 am

IainStinson wrote:What do other users of this sample set do to fit into the "monster" into their available RAM?


Full load, everything at 24 bits. First try was Uncompressed... ran out of Memory when 86% installed.

128 Gb of RAM installed. Second try... full load, everything at 24 bits, using Compression. Works great. Cache size is just over 86 Gb.

One highly significant factor which I have never seen discussed is what I call "Sample Overhead". Looking at the Available RAM indicator in HW, and watching that number decrease as an Organ is loaded... the decrease is always substantially greater than the actual size of the Cache File being loaded. Especially so for Samples with higher internal complexity (fancy features and so forth). Evidently this is because the Organ Definition File must expand itself become essentially a "Program" which resides in RAM alongside the audio samples of the Cache File, in order to run everything effectively Real-Time.

So the actual RAM required by any particular Sample Set may be substantially greater than the size of the Cache File, even when allowing for Operating System overhead and some capacity for the rest of the Hauptwerk Program itself.

To summarize: the beautiful Martinikerk Sample Set has a voracious appetite for RAM. Even with a full load in a 96Gb system, I have heard reports of audio cracks and pops, evidently because there is not enough free RAM left to handle all of this overhead. Recommendations: either use a 128 Gb system (ideally), or reduce the load... bit depth or channels or tremulant, according to taste. And by all means... use Compression!
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostThu Feb 06, 2020 8:40 am

Thanks for the input!

I prefer to use the original acoustic (even thought convolution reverb in HW 5 is excellent) - perhaps I should be more adventurous.

I configured the instrument loading all four sets of samples at 20 bit resolution for the "main" samples, at 16 bit resolution for the tremulant samples and did not load the RP tremulant samples. This left HW's RAM telling me that there was 4.0GB available (sometimes 3.9GB available) - about 6% of memory reported as available. Not quite as much as Martin suggested as "safe" (10%) and it gives me one yellow bar on the indicator. Polyphony is set at 8000.

No silent "positions" for tremulant ranks but drawing the RP tremulant stop silences the RP (as expected as none of its ranks are loaded).

After a couple of days' using this arrangement I've not had any stability issues... so far so good.
Iain

It is a great instrument to play!
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostFri Feb 07, 2020 4:48 am

[I've split Olaf's comments on wet vs. dry sample sets off to a a separate thread as requested, in the Amplification section of the forum.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostFri Feb 07, 2020 5:33 am

Thanks Martin!
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostSat Feb 08, 2020 9:21 am

I have some free trial iLok codes for the St. Martini sample set. This is for a limited time, that I am willing to distribute these codes for free to interested users who would like to test the FULL St. Martini sample set in the 8-channel Surround before buying. The testing time should be 7 days (perhaps even 14 days). Then, the code expires.

Whoever wants, may ask by email (not on this forum!, not even by a "private message" on this forum) for them and I would send them through the Sonus Paradisi web system. A user account on Sonus Paradisi web pages is required for receiving the trial iLok codes for the St. Martini. The codes are distributed through the user accounts, not sent by email.

The correct procedure to get the trial iLok codes for St. Martini:
1.) create a user account on Sonus Paradisi web pages, if you do not have one.
2.) Ask for the codes by email (or by the contact form on the web pages), indicating which account is yours.
3.) I will attach the codes to the user account.
4.) Install St. Martini sample set from the direct download links. It is important to install the sample set first, because you do not loose your precious testing time. Do not forget to install all the packages before attempting to run the sample set. It is not enough to install just one package, all must be installed to run the full version of the sample set.
5.) Activate the codes on your iLok.
6.) Run the sample set and test.
7.) [Optional:] if you like the sample set, order the full version for the full price through the Sonus Paradisi e-shop.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostSat Feb 08, 2020 9:41 am

Thank you very much Jiri! It is fantastic news.
Although it is a bit "of topic", I would like to ask you: will this type of trial license also exist for other Sonus Paradisi sets?
Thank you so much for everything!
Gonzalo.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostSun Feb 09, 2020 8:57 am

Some people seem still puzzled by the 8 channels. I have got this question this morning:
I would like to take up your offer to test the new Martini sample set. However, my system is set up for four channels rather than eight (simple front stereo and rear). How would I best install the trial set with my current system set up?


I love to answer it publicly, because it may probably help other interested users as well:
With the full sample set, you can test any setup you wish! Of course, you can test the four channels diffuse+rear, but you can test any of the 8 channels. Four speakers are absolutely sufficient, the three front stereo perspectives (direct, diffuse, distant) will all go to your front speakers, only the rear samples to the rear speakers. In this way, you can test any possible blend in your front speakers (using the mixer tab in Hauptwerk), to find what suits your ears (and your setup) well, and you can, of course, test also each of the perspectives separately, by muting the remaining channels.

You can simply find your own preferred setup using the 8 channels (or any selection of them), it is not an eleventh commandment to necessarily use all the channels always simultaneously! Those so many channels are there for your comfort to find what best suits your needs.

On the features tab of the St. Martini web presentation, there is a short guide how you can start testing the perspectives to find what you like the most.
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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 11, 2020 1:09 am

Hello Jiri,

first, many thanks for getting such a trial code for the full Martini surround set. Meanwhile I downloaded everything (Vol1.part01 ... part07, Vol2.part1 ... part4, Vol3.part1 ... part4) and stored everything below the same folder on a hard drive.
Then I loaded from Vol1 only part01, from Vol2 only part1, same for Vol3 into HW and clicked on "Install".
So far I did not activate the iLok trial codes for the set(s) according to your recommendation.
But when i try to load the organ, I get the message that package 02277 is missing. From what i see I have installed packages 02282 (surround dif+rear), 02281 (surround distant), 02278 (Surround), and also separately before 02279 (Demo-Set Semi-Dry, that works so far already).
So I am wondering what else do I need to install to get that package 02277? According page 203 of the user guide it should be enough to load only part01 resp. part1 of each volume since HW finds the other files itself (it took about 23min to extract only Vol01).
Probably I did something terrible wrong but I dunno what. I also tried load the other parts of Vol01 (part02 and so on) separately into Hauptwerk, but according HW user guide that should not be needed, or?

I post that here instead a message to Sonus Paradisi because eventually other might suffer from the same problem.
So an advice would be appreciated much.

/BR
Olaf
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zurek

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Re: World famous organ of Martinikerk Groningen will come

PostTue Feb 11, 2020 2:01 am

Only users who neglect reading suffer from similar problems. Also, Hauptwerk usually tells you, what is wrong. If 2277 is missing, then, you still have to install the package 2277. See the direct download links, as indicated in the email sent to everybody.
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